D&D 5E How much should 5e aim at balance?

[Tony Vargas]

Tony, thanks for the reply and the builds.

I don't think there's much forced movement there, is there? And the self-buffing changes the character quite a bit. Can you build a viable polearm paladin? Might be a better fit.

The most viable 'polearm' paladin would probably be a lance charger build. There is very little forced movement, but tripping, AoOs, and threatening reach (with Righteous Might, you become large, so the area you threaten is /huge/), make for /very/ potent control, more, I'd say, than you could accomplish with any fighter build of any level in 4e. AFAICT, 4e intentionally nerfed polearms' with the 'threatening' distinction and Close Burst weapon powers always being '1' instead of weapon-reach, to keep martial characters from trivially /becoming/ controllers. Yes, self-buffing changes the mechanics and maybe some of the specifics of the character, depending on how much you lampshade it, but that's inevitable when modeling the same concept under different systems. The basic concept - religious-warrior, using the pole-arm to dominate the battlefield - is easily modeled.

I don't think this is as close as your polearm tripper. Buffing with Tenser's doesn't seem very similar to Cloud of Darkness + Flame Spiral + Action Point + Cyclonic Vortex + Drow ninjutsu to put them in a lock and stop them shifting out of the darkness next turn.

I suppose there might be other ways to make up Drow ninjutsu... (?) even the Monk muticlass is an option, it's just that sacrificing caster levels is so sub-optimal, it's better to fake whatever you can with spells.

Hmm. A theme emerges here about "magic making up for things".

Sure. Magic is the most powerful resource, so you need to tap it. Aggressive re-skinning isn't encouraged like it is in 4e, but it could be done, though (as always) some DMs might just balk at it.

I missed the ranger spells. How is there healing and buffing?

It's been a while, they kicked in at 3rd level and were pretty druidy, druids had healing & buffing, but without cracking the book I'm not sure.

I'm not sure I can entirely divorce, in my mind, realising a concept from realising it effectively (or at least viably), but your effort is appreciated!

Though you're not really making me interested in giving 3E a second look! If this is 3E's selling point, give me 4e!

It's certainly the aspect of 3e I found most engaging - and, judging from all the 20-level builds on CharOp (many of which were optimize-to-concept, not just optimized), I wasn't alone. The flexibility of mixing each class/level like a building block let you do a lot of things. Sure, out of that nigh-infinite range of creatable 'builds,' there were only a tiny minority that were viable, and fewer still that could remain relevant in tier-1, but it was still a fun exercise to build to a concept (even if your creation wasn't always practical to actually play).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Even without 3 feats ToI should average higher damage than RoB (not to mention the 5 feet) so I ask again where is your balance...arbitrary limits I say.

At least now I know what you're talking about!

Tide of Iron let's you attack one guy once. Rain of Blows let's you make up to 3 attacks if you fulfill the prerequisites.
Rain of Blows is a Level 3 Encounter Power - at the level you qualify for the 15 ft Prone-Knocking Tide of Iron, you're Paragon and will soon be replaced.

But why does this require no special setup - because you're really, really good at it - represented by two feats devoted at this type of tactic. You are so good that people cannot avoid you setting up that maneuver - bu they clearly can still defend against it (unless you never miss, be it due to luck or strange math.)

That said, I'd say the combination of feats is a bit too strong. But it's nothing compared to being able to have an animal companion with almost as much fighting potential as a Fighter and then still having spells and being able to polymorph into a creature with similar fighting ability as a Fighter...

 

[Shadeydm]

At least now I know what you're talking about!

Tide of Iron let's you attack one guy once. Rain of Blows let's you make up to 3 attacks if you fulfill the prerequisites.
Rain of Blows is a Level 3 Encounter Power - at the level you qualify for the 15 ft Prone-Knocking Tide of Iron, you're Paragon and will soon be replaced.

But why does this require no special setup - because you're really, really good at it - represented by two feats devoted at this type of tactic. You are so good that people cannot avoid you setting up that maneuver - bu they clearly can still defend against it (unless you never miss, be it due to luck or strange math.)

That said, I'd say the combination of feats is a bit too strong. But it's nothing compared to being able to have an animal companion with almost as much fighting potential as a Fighter and then still having spells and being able to polymorph into a creature with similar fighting ability as a Fighter...

Tide of Iron is level 1 and the feats are all heroic. But even without the feats I don't see the logic of one being repeatable indefinetly and once being possible only once per encounter.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Tide of Iron is level 1 and the feats are all heroic. But even without the feats I don't see the logic of one being repeatable indefinetly and once being possible only once per encounter.

One of them was listed as Paragon in the Compendium. (I believe that was the Polearm feat.)

I would simply assume that At-Will Powers represent maneuvers (or maybe even a set of maneuvers) that are easier to perform - maybe they require less setup and less luck. There may be many ways to use a shield to force someone around, but a lot less to get an opponent in a situation that allows a quick series of blow. The opponents may prepare them for this type of attack and can avoid the situation, but if you've used up one trick for pushing your enemy around, you can just use another trick - and it's just not possible to prepare for all of them.

 

[Shadeydm]

One of them was listed as Paragon in the Compendium. (I believe that was the Polearm feat.)

I would simply assume that At-Will Powers represent maneuvers (or maybe even a set of maneuvers) that are easier to perform - maybe they require less setup and less luck. There may be many ways to use a shield to force someone around, but a lot less to get an opponent in a situation that allows a quick series of blow. The opponents may prepare them for this type of attack and can avoid the situation, but if you've used up one trick for pushing your enemy around, you can just use another trick - and it's just not possible to prepare for all of them.

So there can only be one trick for hitting someone twice but many tricks for smashing someone with a shield knocking them back 5+feet? This is the logic really?

 

[Tony Vargas]

So there can only be one trick for hitting someone twice but many tricks for smashing someone with a shield knocking them back 5+feet? This is the logic really?

It's one of several possible rationales, pick or imagine one that works for you, the game makes no claims I can recall about any specific one.

The real reason, of course, is that encounter exploits are more powerful than at-wills, and are thus more limited. In genre, characters /do/ typically have some dramatic moments where they do something much more effective than what they do most of the time. Why they don't do that every time is rarely ever explained.

 

[Shadeydm]

It's one of several possible rationales, pick or imagine one that works for you, the game makes no claims I can recall about any specific one.

The real reason, of course, is that encounter exploits are more powerful than at-wills, and are thus more limited. In genre, characters /do/ typically have some dramatic moments where they do something much more effective than what they do most of the time. Why they don't do that every time is rarely ever explained.

if encounters are more powerful than at wills why does tide of iron an at will power average more damage than rain of blows an encounter power? Not to mention the 5 foot push.

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

if encounters are more powerful than at wills why does tide of iron an at will power average more damage than rain of blows an encounter power? Not to mention the 5 foot push.

The logic is not airtight, you either accept the principle, or you don't. No one is forcing you to play something that you can't immerse yourself in. Why in 3rd and earlier editions did characters gain more attacks as they leveled, or improved BAB as the case may be?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why in 3rd and earlier editions did characters gain more attacks as they leveled, or improved BAB as the case may be?

Training. Generally speaking, the more you do something, the better you are at it.

Going back to playing instruments, participating in sports & martial arts, as you practice arpeggios, train to hit pitches, run routes, do katas, etc., you gain accuracy, precision, and speed...and sometimes all of that with less mental effort than you required when you were first learning those skills.

 

[Shadeydm]

The logic is not airtight, you either accept the principle, or you don't. No one is forcing you to play something that you can't immerse yourself in. Why in 3rd and earlier editions did characters gain more attacks as they leveled, or improved BAB as the case may be?

You question makes about as much sense as me asking why my Fighter doesn't get better at rain of blows beyond an incrimental bonus to hit. Why does it do the essentially the same damage at 3rd as 7th or even 11th. Why is he still only able to do it once at 11th level surely by then he is better at it right? or not...

Regarding forcing me to play I made no such claim. I enjoy playing 4E that is not in any way relevant to this discussion.