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D&D 5E How much Warlord do you want?

How much?

  • All of the Warlord!

    Votes: 28 34.1%
  • None of the Warlord!

    Votes: 54 65.9%

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Why do you like the color blue?
I like the color red. Something being the color red does not guarantee that I like it, though.

Which is why the question of your criteria comes up, I think; because it sounds like you are saying that if something is officially released by WotC in print that you'll like it regardless of its other qualities - and since that clearly didn't work out for you on at least a couple parts of the game so far, it is confusing to see you keeping those criteria at high priority.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
I like Warlords and voted for Warlords on this poll, but I think we have to face the business realities for WotC. I like blue paint, but it is not necessary. I like warlords, but an official hardcover book containing Warlords is not necessary.
Stop using words that include me.

Besides, you're trying to change the subject. I am arguing we'll see an official Warlord (with a "true" action transfer ability + its own class) and that is what is going to shut up a significant part of the userbase.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
I like the color red. Something being the color red does not guarantee that I like it, though.

Which is why the question of your criteria comes up, I think; because it sounds like you are saying that if something is officially released by WotC in print that you'll like it regardless of its other qualities - and since that clearly didn't work out for you on at least a couple parts of the game so far, it is confusing to see you keeping those criteria at high priority.
You are confused because you need to reexamine your agenda in this thread.

If you truly are confused as to why the three previous official attempts at giving us warlord-like abilities were summarily dismissed I'm sure there will be plenty of other posters coming along to help you out.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
You are confused because you need to reexamine your agenda in this thread.

If you truly are confused as to why the three previous official attempts at giving us warlord-like abilities were summarily dismissed I'm sure there will be plenty of other posters coming along to help you out.
I am not confused, and I do not have an "agenda."

The three previous official attempts at warlord-like abilities were dismissed by those that have dismissed them because that's not how those folks wanted things to be done.

...and that has only the littlest bit to do with what I was talking about, since my topic of choice was the "I want something officially released by WotC in print" part. Instead of expressing that you want something you like the way works, for your replacement of three offerings that you don't like, you express that you want something that you like the way works made by people that have already tried and failed to give you just that.

So people, myself included, ask why the "official" part seems higher priority to you than the "I actually like it" part when it comes to theoretical new options, while "official" doesn't appear to provide any benefit to options actually in print. But that's not us being "confused" about anything - it's us (well, me at least) being curious. And if you don't want to satisfy my curiosity with conversation, please just say that rather than accuse me of some agenda you imagine that I have or trying to tell me my own mental state.
 


hawkeyefan

Legend
I've not gotten too involved with any of the Warlord discussions. I personally don't have very strong feelings about it. I actually considered the class to be one of the highlights of 4E. But my opinion of 4E overall is pretty low, so I'm not sure that says much.

And I generally don't want to see folks not get what they want...I don't really see the aversion to the class being a strong enough argument against it having a place in the game. Those who don't like it can simply avaoid it.

There seem to be such varying opinions on the topic that it's hard to really pin it down. This may be WotC's reason for not wanting to touch the class with a ten foot pole. No matter what they come up with, there will be groups of people who will say that their design failed. Maybe this is why they've taken little bits of Warlord style abilities and placed them in other classes? Maybe that was a way to get some feedback on them without saying the word Warlord...it seems to be a pretty strong trigger word for many.

What's interesting to me is that none of the Warlord options existing on the DMsGuild seem to allow for different approaches. They all seem to pick one approach and then design that approach as best as they can. It'd be refreshing to see a DMsGuild version that had multiple versions of the Warlord. For example, the Warlord as a class but also having the Warlord as a subclass of Fighter, and a subclass of Bard.

One product that gives everyone a choice that would best work for what they want of the Warlord. Rather than simply creating a product that advocates for one version and then tries to design around that.

I think such an approach would be the only way to make it work. And I don't know if WotC would really want to not commit to a specific version.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
...and that has only the littlest bit to do with what I was talking about, since my topic of choice was the "I want something officially released by WotC in print" part.
There's a lot of reasons to want that. One of them, like the reason to want to never see something officially released by WotC, in print, is validation. Some folks just need the stamp of officialdom, on a dead tree, to feel like their agenda has been served, and D&D is really their exclusive purview. Some people like that will be displeased with any reasonable decision, because they're not a united front, and have no room for compromise, either the game is all theirs, and everyone who disagrees with them is excluded, or it's not really the game anymore and they've been betrayed.

5e, of course, aims for the large excluded middle between those two extremes, though it has, among it's many playtest-articulated unrealistic goals, claimed that it wants to be as inclusive as it can, both in terms of being for fans of all past editions, and in terms of supporting more playstyles than past editions had individually. And coming through on that goal would mean finishing out the classes 'missing' from the PH. First and foremost among them, the only class from a prior-edition PH not included, by name, in the 5e PH, the Warlord. Now, the edition war was a thing, the very thing that prompted the whole touchy-feelie, kumbya playtest goals of 5e, and the opposition to the Warlord has painfully obvious, undeniable roots in that conflict, and including the Warlord is necessary (but not sufficient) to heal that rift. By the same token, the desire to see one of the best classes introduced by 4e included has obvious roots in the other side of that conflict. The exclusion of the Warlord from the PH was a huge compromise the h4ter agenda of exclusing all things 4e. The eventually re-introduction of the class as an opt-in option in some print supplement, is the absolute very least that WotC could do to plausibly offer a similar, if clearly subordinate, compromise to the other side. If it eventually happens, it'll hardly be a 4venger victory, 5e will still very clearly and unequivocally be a very traditionalist edition of D&D, with all it's beloved sacred cows peacefully grazing away - it'll just have a some plausible claim of inclusion. Not enough to satisfy the extremists on either side*, but perhaps enough to move on.


Instead of expressing that you want something you like the way works, for your replacement of three offerings that you don't like
There are in fact 0 versions of the Warlord in 5e. There are some backgrounds, a feat, and some sub-classes that incorporate bits of the Warlord concept, but that's at all the same thing as an actual attempt at the Warlord. There are feats, backgrounds, and two sub-classes (EK & AT) in the PH that offer bits of the Wizard class, there are other wizard(ish) options in SCAG & UA. They were in no way failed attempts at the Wizard, and neither obviate, nor or obviated by the presence of the Wizard in the PH. The Wizard is the most obvious example, but each class has at least a bit of it's mechanics or flavor lifted by a background or feat or impinged upon by another class.

The argument that

, you express that you want something that you like the way works made by people that have already tried and failed to give you just that.
They have not tried. They have so far pointedly avoided it. That creates an appearance of exclusion that is harmful to the goals of 5e. It should be resolved.

So people, myself included, ask why the "official" part seems higher priority to you than the "I actually like it" part
I hope that's clear now. It's important, to the 5e goal of healing the rift in the community, that a good-faith attempt at inclusion is seen to be made. The bar for that is startlingly low, compared to the demands of the edition war. An official class, in print, that is a worthy successor to the original - an optional class, in a supplement, that need never contaminate the play experiences of purists. That is a very, very reasonable compromise to ask for, far more reasonable than the violent detractors of the edition war ever were, far more reasonable than the naysayers opposing the Warlord, now, are being.

If you have any further confusion on the topic, I'd be happy to take it up with you in PM.

Use "us" as much as you like here, as more than one already qualifies, and you are definitely not alone.
PM Conversations can easily accomodate multiple people, now.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
One product that gives everyone a choice that would best work for what they want of the Warlord. Rather than simply creating a product that advocates for one version and then tries to design around that.
That is typical of traditional D&D class design. Casting systems give tremendous flexibility, while non-magical abilities are usually locked in. It may well have been another of the classic games many failed attempts at balance. Vancian magic was limited in how often you could use it, each memorized spell only once. Don't have any spells (or the right spell) left, you can't use it. By a vaguely similar token, if your abilities are few and narrow, there will be times none of them apply, and you effectively can't use them. Both are functionally not always available. There are too many problems (LFQW, 5MWD, etc) to go into with that, and obviously, it didn't work. But, with 5e's classic-feel spirit, it's hardly surprising people feel the need to keep re-treading the old ground. Certainly, it made sense to evoke the classic fighter, rogue, & barbarian as much as possible.

But, the Warlord simply never had that baggage. There's no need to design it in such a constrained way.

Thank you Tony, for spending your valuable time on spelling out the obvious.
It can't have been obvious if a smart, very experienced, long-time D&Der like Aaron was confused about it.
 
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