jasper
Rotten DM
Our motto
Death to those who speak geek and wiggles their fingers at us to hurts us.
D&D 3E/3.5 how much weaker are wizards(and other casters) in this edition compared to 3.5?
Death to those who speak geek and wiggles their fingers at us to hurts us.
L
lowkey13
Guest
*Deleted by user*
TBH i assumed it would be so because that's what a lot of people are saying(yeah i know, mob mentality
is it instead more accurate to say that fighters and rogues got stronger?
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Zardnaar
Legend
TBH i assumed it would be so because that's what a lot of people are saying(yeah i know, mob mentality
is it instead more accurate to say that fighters and rogues got stronger?
Wizards got weaker the other classes got better except for Druids. Clerics in 3.5 needed a bit of non core material to break them.
A wizard is slightly better at low level a lot weaker higher level. Less spell slots, less magic items, concentration mechanic, less spells in the phb, weaker spells generally except damage dealing ones early on, no auto scaling.
They did benefit from having throws being a bit meh though as it's arguably worse than 3.5 but save or suck/die are weaker now. That also benefits anything that uses saves though.
and higher levels? plus the problem (according to some people anyway) with wizards in 3.5 was higher levels. no one was really complaining about the magic missile powerhouse
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
and higher levels? plus the problem (according to some people anyway) with wizards in 3.5 was higher levels. no one was really complaining about the magic missile powerhouse
I'm just getting into that with an 18th level Evoker. Your spell DC and to-hit goes up, which is nice, but you're encountering more things with high saves, counterspells and Legendary saves. Any caster worth their salt will have Warcaster and Resilience-Con by that point but concentration still means you have one sustained effect up with instants backing them up turn to turn. Damage can be nasty but really your go-to spells are control spells like Maze and Force Cage plus multipliers like Simulacrum and Planar Binding for allies, then buffs like Invulnerability, Foresight or Shapechange for fighting BBGs. If I'm going to spend a high-level (7-9) slot I want it to provide more staying power in most cases, not just a hit-point splash that may or may not go through.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
Concentration isn't that big of a deal. The wizard is no longer flying and invisible, but neither are there an abundance of monsters which can negate flying and invisibility as a balancing measure.
The big (theoretical) difference comes with bounded accuracy, and the need to make a saving throw every round. Third edition still had a lot of save-or-die effects, so a single spell could end a fight instantly. Fifth edition has a lot of save-or-mezzed effects, where a single spell can still trivialize a fight, but there's usually at least a possibility of one of the monsters breaking free before you can focus it down.
Unfortunately, the bounded part of spell DCs doesn't quite work as intended, due to the proficiency math. In third edition, save DCs were often impossible to beat, which is why a natural 20 was always a success. In fifth edition, because non-proficient saves don't scale at all, and since a natural 20 is no longer an automatic success, it's possible for a mezzed monster to have zero chance of breaking free. So the ultimate change in caster power hasn't actually changed that much, on the high end; you just need to be more careful to target non-proficient saves.
The big (practical) difference is the catastrophic nerf to spell damage, with the corresponding buff to monster HP. The HP for orcs and ogres have more than doubled between editions, while spell damage only scales with the spell slot used (rather than scaling automatically with your caster level), and even then it only scales half as quickly. A third-level spell slot is no longer sufficient to wipe out a room full of orcs, let alone ogres, even if you're a level 10 character.
The big (theoretical) difference comes with bounded accuracy, and the need to make a saving throw every round. Third edition still had a lot of save-or-die effects, so a single spell could end a fight instantly. Fifth edition has a lot of save-or-mezzed effects, where a single spell can still trivialize a fight, but there's usually at least a possibility of one of the monsters breaking free before you can focus it down.
Unfortunately, the bounded part of spell DCs doesn't quite work as intended, due to the proficiency math. In third edition, save DCs were often impossible to beat, which is why a natural 20 was always a success. In fifth edition, because non-proficient saves don't scale at all, and since a natural 20 is no longer an automatic success, it's possible for a mezzed monster to have zero chance of breaking free. So the ultimate change in caster power hasn't actually changed that much, on the high end; you just need to be more careful to target non-proficient saves.
The big (practical) difference is the catastrophic nerf to spell damage, with the corresponding buff to monster HP. The HP for orcs and ogres have more than doubled between editions, while spell damage only scales with the spell slot used (rather than scaling automatically with your caster level), and even then it only scales half as quickly. A third-level spell slot is no longer sufficient to wipe out a room full of orcs, let alone ogres, even if you're a level 10 character.
MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Wizards are ambivalent, I would say that if we had a 3.5 wizzard and a 5e wizard they would be more or less even. While they no longer have tons of scrolls around for utility, they no longer need them thanks to ritual casting, spell damage is not as good anymore and stacking is a thing of the past, but between cantrips and the uber flexibility brought by Neo-vancian, I'd say they come even. Now if we compared sorcerers there is no contest, except at the lowest levels, the 3.5 sorcerer trashes the floor with the 5e sorcerer.
Zardnaar
Legend
Stacking still exists you just need mopre casters. If you have a 5 or 6 person party with 3 or 4 primary casters its very noticeable at the higher levels. 5E doesn't really handle larger groups that well though but when you get 3+ primary casters they can drop their best spells every encounter once they hit level 6 or 7.
Well, spell casting in general is somewhat weaker in this edition. This is mostly done with the mitigation of Save or Suck spells (many of them have multiple saves or save every round) and a major reduction in stacking (no longer one dispel magic causing the combat to stop for twenty minutes while you recalculate all the bonuses and such). While all full casters in 5e cast like 3.5 sorcerers (wizards can prepare so many levels of spells each day, then choose from this prepared list when expending spell slots at casting time), there are limitations:
1) Wizards no longer have as many spell slots (mitigated by the Arcane recovery feature, which allows wizards to recover a certain levels worth of spell slots once on a short rest, but it does require a short rest).
2) Many spell that are not instantaneous are now Concentration: meaning that the spell could be disrupted by damage, and you can only ever have one concentration spell up at a time.
3) Spells no longer increase in effect with "Caster level": a first level spell cast by an Archmage has the same effect as one cast by an apprentice; you have to use a higher level slot to get more effect, and this 'slot scaling' is rarely efficient (this is somewhat offset by the Save Difficulty increasing with 'caster level'; opponents will find it much more difficult to save against the Archmage's 1st level spell, but he's still only getting 1st level effects out of it) This makes lower level slots more efficient for utility, buff & debuff type spells. Of course, at will damaging cantrips are there to fill the gap; they increase in damage with the caster's level.
4) IMHO high level spell effects are somewhat less than in 3.5; and I'm not referring to damage (which is a poor measure when comparing between editions); you just don't get all the bells and whistles you used to. Summoning spells are sparse and not as prolific; Teleport is higher level; Demiplane is basically Mordenkainen’s Broom Closet; Timestop is not the be all end all it once was.
5) Monsters are generally not as powerful with as many abilities; 5e has gone a long way to reduce the "fiddly bits" and streamline and simplify game play, so you don't necessarily need all the bells and whistles of yesteryear.
1) Wizards no longer have as many spell slots (mitigated by the Arcane recovery feature, which allows wizards to recover a certain levels worth of spell slots once on a short rest, but it does require a short rest).
2) Many spell that are not instantaneous are now Concentration: meaning that the spell could be disrupted by damage, and you can only ever have one concentration spell up at a time.
3) Spells no longer increase in effect with "Caster level": a first level spell cast by an Archmage has the same effect as one cast by an apprentice; you have to use a higher level slot to get more effect, and this 'slot scaling' is rarely efficient (this is somewhat offset by the Save Difficulty increasing with 'caster level'; opponents will find it much more difficult to save against the Archmage's 1st level spell, but he's still only getting 1st level effects out of it) This makes lower level slots more efficient for utility, buff & debuff type spells. Of course, at will damaging cantrips are there to fill the gap; they increase in damage with the caster's level.
4) IMHO high level spell effects are somewhat less than in 3.5; and I'm not referring to damage (which is a poor measure when comparing between editions); you just don't get all the bells and whistles you used to. Summoning spells are sparse and not as prolific; Teleport is higher level; Demiplane is basically Mordenkainen’s Broom Closet; Timestop is not the be all end all it once was.
5) Monsters are generally not as powerful with as many abilities; 5e has gone a long way to reduce the "fiddly bits" and streamline and simplify game play, so you don't necessarily need all the bells and whistles of yesteryear.
