D&D General How Often Should a PC Die in D&D 5e?

How Often Should PC Death Happen in a D&D 5e Campaign?

  • I prefer a game where a character death happens about once every 12-14 levels

    Votes: 0 0.0%

I have found in 5e that my players don't particularly like their characters dying. The threat of death is enough to get them sweaty and nervous. Death saves alone can cause hysterics. An actual TPK? Man, that would just ruin the story. Edit: I did run Forge of Fury though and that was rough. 5 PC deaths in that, and only one PC escaped alive at the end. But we all knew it was a one-shot and not characters that would continue beyond the module, so I didn't pull any punches.
 

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So... in the context of a character that is not oneself and thus doesn't have your knowledge an life experience... skills.

That would be the right roll.
What i meant Is players looking at any situation and trying to find which skill (craft, tumble, Hide) to solve It with, which has them look at the game "from the outside", instead i like to favour thinking in context. Use social levers on the NPC instead of Rolling. "Just Rolling my skill" should be secondary to trying to resolve any problem in context or at least be Gated by that action (as in "you only roll diplomacy after having provided a compelling argument)
 

There is alot of discussion around whether 5e needs to be harder, more challenging and more deadly, so it got me to wondering just how deadly do people want their campaigns to be... I'm also curious on whether someone being a player or a DM affects the answer so feel free to let me know which you are. Finally I'd be interested in hearing why you feel your selection is the sweet spot and whether you feel it can be achieved with 5e and if not what edition or even other game you think hits your sweet spot better.
Being harder does not mean dying more necessarily. It means feeling "fear" for your character and being in more doubt about the outcome at least initially. I have never played 5e but in some prior versions of D&D, if you died you really weren't trying or the DM was rewriting the rules.
 

And my experience has been when a group reached the highest levels 17+, that some PCs had not died at all, some had died twice, and others up to four times. Death is usually a factor of player skill and to a lesser degree class. I thought 2 to 3 times a campaign would work assuming the campaign runs it's full course. And I don't mean permadeath, just death.
 

I miss the option "I don't think there should be a defined rate of death per level".

I don't care alot about how often death should happen. It also has only a "fake" connection to the edition and the system. I can build you in 5e24 a campaign where every second session a tpk happens. I can also build you a super easy OSR campaign where chance that nobody dies is unusually high. Its adventure design that makes the difficulty. Games like 5e just have much more granularity do adjust difficulty because death is not just 6 HP away.

To answer the question I think a pc should die as often as they make deadly mistakes and much less than the number the GM makes gravely mistakes.
 


What if death never happened? The PCs always survive because the rules say so. Would that be a "better D&D"?
I mean, at my Dungeon World table, there is no such thing as random, permanent, irrevocable death.

(Note that these are individually necessary and jointly sufficient conditions for this statement. The death must be all three for it to get no-sale: it must be random, not the result of either willing intent or willful disregard of serious warnings; and it must be permanent, meaning it won't get better on its own; and it must be irrevocable, meaning the PCs have no means by which they could revive the dead character. A death that is merely random and permanent, but revocable, is still perfectly fine. Same with any other proper subset of those three conditions.)

I do not think this would be better for all possible players. But I do think it is better for a lot of players, and in particular, a lot of the more casual players who have begun playing D&D in the past 10-15 years or so. Modern D&D is much, much more character-driven, about the ongoing and evolving story of the party and how each member interrelates with every other member, both individually and in subsets. As a result, where older D&D fans tended to approach character death more like getting a bad deal in poker, shrugging, and moving on to the next deal, newer D&D fans tend to approach character death more like the writers of a long-running TV show brutally and unceremoniously killing off a beloved character for stupid, contrived reasons in an unsatisfying way that leaves that character's story threads just dangling.

Now, some people see that as a cool challenge, how to soldier on, how to remember the dead, how to keep the group's story alive even as individual members come and go. But....well, a lot of people just don't see it that way. Doctor Who gets away with changing actors specifically because the Doctor is still meant to be the same person on the inside, even as we understand that the actor has changed...and even that is still quite contentious at times! Imagine if some random mugger in the Zocalo had killed off Delenn in the middle of season 3 of Babylon 5. The fans would have rioted, and I'm not sure I could blame them! The audience is invested in these specific people, both because they're interesting people, and because they have history and interact with one another over time.

That's what D&D offers to people that even a slick, well-made MMO rarely if ever can do, the interpersonal drama, the personal story, the striving for success on goals that might be irrelevant to most people but hugely meaningful to that person. If people want a gritty sandbox challenge where death lurks in every shadow, there's a dozen wildly different video games to scratch that itch. If they want a mechanical challenge to overcome, are you smart enough or skillful enough to survive, there's a dozen more wildly different games to scratch that itch. But crafting a personal story, that matters to you and to your fellow players, that feels personally meaningful and satisfying? That's something that TTRPGs still have a pretty solid monopoly on.

Random, permanent, irrevocable death very, very much gets in the way of that. So many groups turn away from that form of consequence, because it's not only not interesting to them, it's actively antagonistic to the things that are interesting to them. (Or, what I sadly suspect is more common, they struggle and struggle and struggle against it, thinking that it's required or that they really do enjoy it etc., never quite understanding why the situation ends up unsatisfying.)
 


What i meant Is players looking at any situation and trying to find which skill (craft, tumble, Hide) to solve It with, which has them look at the game "from the outside", instead i like to favour thinking in context. Use social levers on the NPC instead of Rolling. "Just Rolling my skill" should be secondary to trying to resolve any problem in context or at least be Gated by that action (as in "you only roll diplomacy after having provided a compelling argument)
So... in no way using the skill of your character, but falling back on the player's own ability to recognize and manipulate social levers, thus gating out people who don't naturally have those skills.

Got it.
 

I mean, at my Dungeon World table, there is no such thing as random, permanent, irrevocable death.

(Note that these are individually necessary and jointly sufficient conditions for this statement. The death must be all three for it to get no-sale: it must be random, not the result of either willing intent or willful disregard of serious warnings; and it must be permanent, meaning it won't get better on its own; and it must be irrevocable, meaning the PCs have no means by which they could revive the dead character. A death that is merely random and permanent, but revocable, is still perfectly fine. Same with any other proper subset of those three conditions.)

I do not think this would be better for all possible players. But I do think it is better for a lot of players, and in particular, a lot of the more casual players who have begun playing D&D in the past 10-15 years or so. Modern D&D is much, much more character-driven, about the ongoing and evolving story of the party and how each member interrelates with every other member, both individually and in subsets. As a result, where older D&D fans tended to approach character death more like getting a bad deal in poker, shrugging, and moving on to the next deal, newer D&D fans tend to approach character death more like the writers of a long-running TV show brutally and unceremoniously killing off a beloved character for stupid, contrived reasons in an unsatisfying way that leaves that character's story threads just dangling.

Now, some people see that as a cool challenge, how to soldier on, how to remember the dead, how to keep the group's story alive even as individual members come and go. But....well, a lot of people just don't see it that way. Doctor Who gets away with changing actors specifically because the Doctor is still meant to be the same person on the inside, even as we understand that the actor has changed...and even that is still quite contentious at times! Imagine if some random mugger in the Zocalo had killed off Delenn in the middle of season 3 of Babylon 5. The fans would have rioted, and I'm not sure I could blame them! The audience is invested in these specific people, both because they're interesting people, and because they have history and interact with one another over time.

That's what D&D offers to people that even a slick, well-made MMO rarely if ever can do, the interpersonal drama, the personal story, the striving for success on goals that might be irrelevant to most people but hugely meaningful to that person. If people want a gritty sandbox challenge where death lurks in every shadow, there's a dozen wildly different video games to scratch that itch. If they want a mechanical challenge to overcome, are you smart enough or skillful enough to survive, there's a dozen more wildly different games to scratch that itch. But crafting a personal story, that matters to you and to your fellow players, that feels personally meaningful and satisfying? That's something that TTRPGs still have a pretty solid monopoly on.

Random, permanent, irrevocable death very, very much gets in the way of that. So many groups turn away from that form of consequence, because it's not only not interesting to them, it's actively antagonistic to the things that are interesting to them. (Or, what I sadly suspect is more common, they struggle and struggle and struggle against it, thinking that it's required or that they really do enjoy it etc., never quite understanding why the situation ends up unsatisfying.)
Babylon 5 is a story (an awesome story!), not a game (although there was an RPG). Stories and games are not the same and often have different goals.
 

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