How on Earth do you have a tightly controlled D&D world with normal magic (Long)

Also, note that what makes a system feodal is the pyramidal organisation, where each people are vassals to a leader that is a person (rather than a post). Not simply "the King", but "King Popol Azgloub the Tenth", for example. Allegiances between individuals.

You may have feudalize anything. Feudal theo- or mago-cracies. Maffias are feudal in this regards also.
 

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You wonder what deities, if asked by "Commune" spell, would answer to questions like : "Is this system of governence (feodality) the best one to bring my flock closer to you?" or "Is it right to disarm people?", and you seem to suggest that "good" deities would probably answer "no" to both questions. I don't think so. In fact, almost any deity could answer "yes" about these two points.

LG deity viewpoint: "the perfect society is based upon obedience to a rightful and just ruler, whose task is to bring peace and order to everyone; of course, peaceful citizens in an orderly society do not need weapons; bearing weapons, when you are not allowed to by the king, reveals nasty intentions; so, "yes" and "yes"

LN deity : almost the same point of view, but the ruler only needs to be "rightful" to be obeyed; and weapon use is probably to be strictly restricted to military forces

NG deity : "yes" again; feodality can be the best way to protect people from harm, and to assure common plentiness; so, no military weapons needed for common people

N deity : to both questions, "why not"? it's only a way of balacing things in a society…

NE : who cares? so, "yes" and "yes", as long as evil can prosper

LE deity: as "might makes right", "yes" to both questions, because a real ruler (or a god) has to be feared, and even the faithful have to learn respect for strengh; of course, no weapons allowed except for direct servants of the one power…

CE deity : "yes" to both questions : it's much more easy to oppress and terrify people when you can exert power upon them, and when you have weapons and that they are unarmed…

IMO, only CG and CN deities could possibly answer "no" to these questions - but "feodality" can be a system open to a lot of personnal opportunities, you can always be knighted, for example…
 

Surprisingly enough, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting answers these suppositions quite well. Or, I should say, the characteristic that makes so many people take FR to task.

You know the old saw about how there is a 10th level fighter or wizard as mayor in ever little town in Faerun? In a society where true power is gained by experience, those who inherit their lands, positions, and titles will have little to no place. Without a sufficient combined guard force of offense, artillery, and defense (fighters, wizards, and clerics) small towns will be easily run over by larger dangers.

Furthermore, the answers given by a commune or divination will not necessarily be always "yes" or "no", especially for such complex questions as "what system of government shal we use?" More likely, a cryptic answer will be the norm. Ask Tymora in the FR whether feodality will bring the flock closer, and you may get an answer such as "that way which imposes the value of luck above all shall make the people free." Does this mean Tymora favors anarchy? A democracy? A system of drawn lots to determine who is king this year? Obviously, you don't go to the goddess of Luck for the info on who rules this year.

In summary, using the default game assumptions, the heads of power for a D&D world will have likely gained that power through accomplishment as much as through divine right, or political skill. If they did get it through divine right, very likely they are able to strike you dead through a word from their god if you challenge their right to rule anyway. :)
 


IMHO, the way to make a semi-feudal society work for DnD is to make the nobles pretty tough.

IIRC, medieval knights were a martial group, training quite a bit. They had superior arms and armor compared to other groups. While they weren't exactly super rich, they were richer than most others. It's not until later (high middle ages?) that merchants rise to power.

Now let's translate that to DnD. We have a group of people with good training, and lots of hands on experience. That means that the group will have a high average level. Also, DnD has classes based around almost every stat - even lords that would be crappy fighting in plate might have other high end skills, like wizardry. They have good equipment - which means that it's going to be magical. Because magical equipment isn't going to wear out like normal stuff, it will be passed down in the family until lost. Since it's sticking around awhile, in times of prosperity, the nobles can probably afford to have it upgraded.

There will probably be a church or group of churches allied with the nobles too. Siamorphe and Nobanion are both allied with nobility in FR, and many of the gods would be in favor of the status quo. While everyone may have access to healing magic through goodly religions, nobles, because of their strong affiliations with some churches and the fact that they have money, will have superior access. They might even recieve ressurection type magics.

Now we have the favored scions of noble families having excellent training, inherited magical gear, institutional support, and favored access to healing and possibly resurrection magic. In order to proactively eliminate threats to their realms, they'll probably undertake some adventures too. This may create a crowding out effect as noble and noble backed groups clear out areas or solve problems that would otherwise be done by independent groups. Of course, they might think of things the otehr way around - "this is our dungeon, peasant." Because of their advantages in equipment and because they can afford raise spells more easily, adventuring is a much lower risk proposition.

Additionally, the nobles will probably have arrangements with other power groups. It's not like that band of adventurers will be the first people to ever think of attacking someone magically. Do you think most wizards want to be hated because the actions of the terrorist planar binding guy? They have to prep spells in advance and need to sleep, so they'll probably want to be perceived as neutral in most matters. It might be hard to do spell research with a mob outside. Spellcasters might want to police their own. Groups of wizards might trade magical services like wardings, the occasion spell, and or protection from other magi for exceptions from taxation, military service, having some sort of special quasi-noble status, etc. Also, wizards are another class that can work well with inherited stuff. By inheriting a bunch of spell books, a noble wizard might have edge over an independent one - and copying rights could be used as bargining chip to gain the services of other wizards.

Once you integrate nobility into the magical world, they don't look nearly so helpless. Of course, I think there will be some important differences caused by the presence of powerful people, but it doesn't necessarily mean that any given social structure is doomed.
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that any social structure could be attacked with terror spell assualts. So if the democratic adventurers overthrow the kingdom, their holdings might then be assualted by escaped royalist backers. I can democratic style governments folding more easily to that kind of external attack than oligarchies.
 

Finally, even if the emperor is not level 15+ himself, he still have a devoted Imperial Battlemage (Wiz 18) and a loyal High General (Pal 20).

If magic were to upset the state of thing, it would be in communication (divination spells, sending, etc.) & trade (teleportation magic, bound extraplanar workers, creation spells and mining trip to the elemental plane of earth, etc.) fields rather than in the political domain.
 

Also what makes you think that the land based economics of fuedalism make any sense in a D&D world

D&D worlds can produce much much more wealth than a real world society could ever hope to.

Summoned Elementals
Move Earth
Disintegrate
Plant Growth
Continual Light (work all night )
Zombie Labor
Charmed Monsters
Guidance Spell (+5% on any task)
Control Weather
Cure Light (no more work related injuries)

The power of magic is incredible and will change the world in ways that make a medieval system untenable in much the same way as the industrial revolution did IRL

With cure disease spells, cure wounds, and purify food and drink it means much less disease and injury and that means vastly increased population. Vastly

Do you think a diety of healing is going to say "Let them suffer?" I don't.

Make items that cure disease or create food at will and distrubute them. Sure they are 30000GP each (like a +4 weapon) but it negates disease for a whole community (or feeds hundreds or thousands). Anyway it will do more to help people than 1 or 2 swords ever would

After all the Romans had a crude welfare system, the feudal folk had alms, the celts had community hospitals-- this just cuts the resource intensive parts out

I just don't see any reason that magic wouldn't quickly be harnesed for the common good.

Oh there might be societys in which the magic is used to prop up the ruling class and the ruling class alone but those societys would be terribly vulverable compared to an imperial model or another model

Ok the king and his champions go out to fight the imperial legions.

A fuedal army versus an imperial army means fighting class is destroyed as versus the loss of replacable soldiers ---rather one sided

Also an imperial society can just recruit more troop, no so easy when your troop are the ruling class

Now if the spell casters are the rulers you have a thaumatocracy or a theocracy not fuedalism

And if the there actually is rule by divine right, hey that will work... As was mentioned here You get Birthright (although it technically is lower in magic than standard D&D)

I was talking secular fuedalism after all, not one really backed up by gods
 

I meant feudalism in terms of hereditary ruling elite than in the economic land owning sense. I never said that things would map exactly the same. But the basis for the system might easily be grants of powerful magic toys in exchange for fealty, instead of land grants.

The way I see it, the problem with an imperial model is that your armies aren't going to be good enough. Sure, losing an elite knight hurts more than losing a grunt, but lots of things can kill grunts no sweat. Magical creatures often have threshold effects -you have to be this tough to even stand a chance. Relying on mass guys with moderate levels of equipment and training means that you'll have bigger problems against Mass spell effects, DR, etc. You also have bigger logistical problems as it's much easier to cut off an armies supplies. Sure, after taking heavy losses battling giants, you just recruit more. But more guys just won't cut against some things, or if it does, the losses will be pretty significant.

Divine Right ideas might have problems with mass polytheism. Some churches will probably directly support it, others might favor non-interference, etc. You could probably find divine backing for almost anything.
 

There are ways you could deal with all these issues. But usually, I don't bother with it, because for me, D&D is about having fun, not about accurately simulating a political and economic model that involves magic, divine intervention and super-powered beings from other realities.

The default D&D world contains so many different factors (clerics and their gods, outsiders, demons, devils, celestials, super powered sorcerors, ancient cities and magics, etc.) that to factor all of it into one paradigm and have it all make sense would require so much work and detail that it wouldn't be worth the effort, IMHO.
 

I love this kind of thread.

I think the whole issue of Communing would mean that the populace would be more willing to accept a given pantheon or monotheistic god (quite probably with a few minor gods kept on the side "just in case" in an unofficial/pagan capacity).

As far as magic goes, you can regulate anytying. Anything. The Brits had some wild anti-martial-arts laws back in 19th century China. A wizard may command great power, but the Vancian (ie D&D) system of magic ensures that a caster can't go hog-wild and just do whatever he feels like. Sooner or later that archmage has to take an 8-hour nap. And whose to say the warriors will be without magic? There could very well be enough wizards who command power but were still sympathetic to the plight of the non-magical community (e.g. A wizard aids the warrior's anti-magic crusade because his daughter was once the victim of a particularly cruel charm person or domination spell).

Basically, I think that magic will encourage centralizing the nobility's power base, which lends itself more to a fudal structure than a more libertarian government.

My two cents.
 

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