How on Earth do you have a tightly controlled D&D world with normal magic (Long)

[Desdichado]

There are ways you could deal with all these issues. But usually, I don't bother with it, because for me, D&D is about having fun, not about accurately simulating a political and economic model that involves magic, divine intervention and super-powered beings from other realities.

And with a simple word, he dismisses all those who find this very activity to be fun!

The default D&D world contains so many different factors (clerics and their gods, outsiders, demons, devils, celestials, super powered sorcerors, ancient cities and magics, etc.) that to factor all of it into one paradigm and have it all make sense would require so much work and detail that it wouldn't be worth the effort, IMHO.

Au contraire, that effort is exactly what makes D&D fun for some like me. Although, I've given up on the intricacies of D&D as written and opted for a homegrown magic system. More often than not, I'd rather start with the society I want first, and then make the mechanics build from that, not the other way around. But either way, to me, the consistency is important.

 

[shilsen]

There are ways you could deal with all these issues. But usually, I don't bother with it, because for me, D&D is about having fun, not about accurately simulating a political and economic model that involves magic, divine intervention and super-powered beings from other realities.

The default D&D world contains so many different factors (clerics and their gods, outsiders, demons, devils, celestials, super powered sorcerors, ancient cities and magics, etc.) that to factor all of it into one paradigm and have it all make sense would require so much work and detail that it wouldn't be worth the effort, IMHO.

Even though I love these discussions, your position is what I take. As long as I can justify my campaign world within broad parameters to myself and my players, I'm happy. Willing suspension of disbelief works for us

 

[Victim]

Well, I think that it's an interesting and amusing excercise.

Also, I consider it a good thing when you build a world so that it can atleast survive simple stuff like powerful things in general, invisibility, etc.

 

[Ace]

Well, I think that it's an interesting and amusing excercise.

Also, I consider it a good thing when you build a world so that it can atleast survive simple stuff like powerful things in general, invisibility, etc.

As do I.

I was having drinks (tea actually) with a gaming buddy of mine this afternoon and was explaining some of the facets of my game world. He has never played in my games nor I in his but we have discussed gaming at some length.

After I expained the world to him I found his responce enlightening "Hmm, Its like Jehreg" That series of novels by Steven Brust (a D&D gamer himself) is a very good approximation of what life in a D&D world might be like

My world is rather modern in outlook, rather than fuedal in part due to magic and in part because the humans on the world are from about 1950-2050 Earth or round abouts.

Many of the attitudes carried over

Other worlds of course would be very different

 

[Harold Mayo]

I think someone put it best who said that people grow up with certain values and will likely stick to those, regardless of their power level. Just because you can beat up your king doesn't mean that you're going to do so.

This is actually the kind of question around which my entire campaign world has evolved. I have tried to make a "realistic" fantasy setting...that is, one where D&D magic and monsters exist but in which I try to see how magic and monsters and such would evolve in that society and how that society would evolve around them.

For example:

Your theoretical high level party decides to go marauding around the kingdom. Fine...the local government places some little teams of low-level mages and priests with charm person and hold person spells where they might show up. WHAM! Even high level PCs don't always make their saves.

OR

You must remember that things don't happen in a void. The PC group is not the first high level party to ever exist. What they try has probably been tried before. Our own Department of Defense has thousands or hundreds of thousands of scenarios planned out. Is there any reason why a large kingdom or empire wouldn't have the same?

OR

The PC group takes over the kingdom. Then what? Well...more than likely someone will come after them. They can't be in a group all the time. They will be alone eventually. At that time, even a group of lower level ganging up on one of them will be able to take one of them out. Think about how the PCs tend to do things...those things will be done to them, eventually. The PCs in my own world DREAD the thought of someone pulling their own tricks on them. So far, for the most part, they haven't had to face any enemies with their resources and they have always been on the offensive, rather than the defensive, end of things.

OR

The PCs go marauding. All of a sudden, there is a huge price on their heads. OTHER bands of adventurers will come around and try to stop them. How many times does a group of adventurers get recruited to handle something that the locals aren't able to....??? Ha! Practically every adventure!

************************************************

Remember the bell curve? Or the 3-d pyramid thingie? Even if the PCs are at the very top of the pyramid of power or are at the far right side of the bell curve, there are MULTIPLE people right under their level of power and MULTIPLE people below that. Sooner or later, a group of PCs (or NPCs) would meet its match. No one stays on top forever.

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My own solution? Magic is pretty rare in my world. Those who are able to use it, whether naturally or by training, are likely part of some group. Most groups owe allegiance to some cause, deity, or lord. It's only logical that the ruler of a land would enlist the aid of anyone within his land who can use something as useful as magic. Since he IS the ruler, he is capable of giving out any number of enticements. No taxes? OK, you'll never be taxed as long as you cast 12 spells per year in my service. Need land and a headquarters for your organization? OK, but every person you train must, upon graduation, serve for four years in my forces. A more restrictive ruler might license magic and anyone who uses it must be licensed or imprisoned or slain. The license enables one to practice magic in that kingdom and to COLLECT AND KEEP THE REVENUE from it. Remember, in the real world, a lot of things that are useful or unusual or are luxury items are the targets of heavy taxation. A mage can command high prices for the casting of some spells.

In my own world, many mages spend most of their lives in urban areas casting simple spells at no risk to themselves and collecting mucho dinero for it. Mages are exceedingly rare, however, so they can become exceedingly rich. Why would a mage want to go out adventuring and risk his life when he can lay in a comfortable bed every night and make a lot of money just by casting phantasmal force spells for entertainment purposes, mending spells on valuable antiques, ESP spells on criminals, and so on? You are going to have your occasional guy who wants to risk his life, but many are going to stay safe and sound.

Of course, the behavior of a mage depends on his culture, type of magic, social class, etc. and the above paragraph isn't indicative of EVERY mage in EVERY culture.
*************************************************

Sorry to digress so much. Really, what happens in a D&D world in terms of your question depends very much on how common people with spell-casting abilities actually are.

 

[Ace]

SNIP a lot of good thoughts

Sorry to digress so much. Really, what happens in a D&D world in terms of your question depends very much on how common people with spell-casting abilities actually are.

No digression at all. Thats was good post.

For comparison my game is rather high magic.

Anyone with access to time and a spell book can learn arcane spells if they have an INT of 10 or more and a wis of 8+

Anyone willing to live by the vows of a cleric and with a wis of 10+ and an int of 8+ can be a cleric

I also use power components. The end result is a lot of magic.

Since many societys IMC integrate magic into the fabric of daily life. Cities are well lit, food is plentiful and cheap and disease is rare

This means big populations and long lives.

A couple of world altering items from my game

Blast Rod --Use activated disintagrate at will. Cost 132,000 or roughly the outfiting cost of a 12 elite troops with magic weapons. Most civilized areas have 1 or 2 of these used for big mining projects. With one a crew of 20 men or dwarves can cut the Chunnel in 4 months

Food 0 Mat (technically this is called a Caludron of Plenty) most cities have several of these. They cost 30000GP (About the cost of a warband) and will produce enough food to feed thousands of people each day. The food is bland but these devices are used to feed the poor and make up for emegencies

Healing Orb- Use activated casts Cure Disease at will. It takes about 30 seconds to cure someone. These toys are also expensive (30,000k each) but they eliminate serious disease in cities almost completly

Guidance Pendant-- This device casts Guidance at will. It costs about 1000 but will make a person roughly 5% more effective

Healing Gauntlet-- This gadget casts Cure Light wounds at will. Every hospital, and most wealthy people will have one of these. It negates injury and can heal a person at the rate of 5.5 pts per round.

Continual Light-- at 90GP a pop you can be pretty sure every city is well lit. No need to burn the midnite oil. Light is free.

Purfier-- This gadget costs 56000. It casts a quickened purify food and drink. Basically the "quickened" metamagic is there to allow the thing to stay activated. It is expensive and slow but one of these will purify a municipal reservoir, eventually at the rate of about 70,000 gallons a day. Most cities have several of these and it will purify (roughly) enough water for 1000 people each day. Combined with conservation efforts most cities can manage pure drinking water. And if there was a cholera outbreak-- No worries, thats what cure disease is for

Most muncipalities also have Decanters of Endless Water to prevent drought and refill aquifers


There are tons more items like this out there but end result is my world is more like Steven Brust crossed with Robert Howard than J.R.R. Tolkien crossed with Mercedes Lackey

 

[jgbrowning]

Lets say you have a basic fuedal state (a protection racket really) how would you maintain it in the face of Clerics, Sorcerers, Bards and Druids

These guys are part of the protection racket.

In a world where people like this exist other systems would work better Manocracy (governmnet by mages) Imperial States (if the government trains spell casters) Theocracy (obviuosly and likely a rather common form of government) Mind Control State or maybe even a Republic I don't think dictatorships, heridatary aristicracys fuedalism probably would work

I'd tend to think in a world in which actual personal power (ie. not power created from weath/connection/hirelings, but from things like fighting ability and magic use) would lead more to dictatorships and hereditary feudalism.

I think republics out of the question because people with personal power will think themselves superior to people without personal power.

Magocracies, theocracys would probably be out of it because there are two many powercenters being excluded. ie mages would have to fight the powerful fighters and clerics to maintain their power. ie. theocracys would have to fight clerics of different religions, mages, and powerful fighters to maintain power.

i think a more typical feudalism based upon social connections would arise and deal with the situation by distributing communal/social power throughout those who have personal power.


anyway, my .002$

joe b.

 

[Ace]

Re: Re: How on Earth do you have a tightly controlled D&D world with normal magic (Long)

These guys are part of the protection racket.



SNIP
I think republics out of the question because people with personal power will think themselves superior to people without personal power.

Magocracies, theocracys would probably be out of it because there are two many powercenters being excluded. ie mages would have to fight the powerful fighters and clerics to maintain their power. ie. theocracys would have to fight clerics of different religions, mages, and powerful fighters to maintain power.

i think a more typical feudalism based upon social connections would arise and deal with the situation by distributing communal/social power throughout those who have personal power.


anyway, my .002$

joe b.

Good points all

but one on one a Fighter is no match for a Wizard or a Cleric.

In order to have a chance against a Wizard a fighter needs magic items that he can't amek. If the Wizard restrict magic items (which they would to protect themselves) the Fighters are toast

Clerics are even worse, with the right domains they can do anything.....

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: Re: Re: How on Earth do you have a tightly controlled D&D world with normal magic (Long)

Good points all

but one on one a Fighter is no match for a Wizard or a Cleric.

In order to have a chance against a Wizard a fighter needs magic items that he can't amek. If the Wizard restrict magic items (which they would to protect themselves) the Fighters are toast

Clerics are even worse, with the right domains they can do anything.....

also good points but..

wizards aren't the only source of magic. fighters will play groups of wizards off of each other for maximum benefit. same thing with clerics, with so many gods, there probably wont be any form of magic restriction on divine magic. You throw druids, sorcs, and bards into this and you simply have to many different powersources to have a single powersource maintain acendency.

but i think more importantly than all of this is that people aren't just classes according to DnD statistics. If you think of people as people first, with social connections, social restraints.. (ie. i dont care how powerful of a wizard you are, you're still not going to fart in public because people will not take you seriously ) its much easier to realize that these groups will assimulate in a population. They may be a wizard, but before they were a wizard he was an *insert country where he grew up in* and that limits the person.

One way i see non-assimulation occuring would be through conquest... ie. if a particular group fronted an army and managed to conquer a land. then they'd rule as a separate group.

We've (my wife and I) have actually written a book about this that's coming out on PDF in a few days. Its called a magical medieval society: western europe and i think it does a good job of mixing DnD magic with a traditional medieval mindset. It'll be up at RPGnow.com before this friday. You may want to pick it up, i think its very good (duh, if i thought is sucked we wouldn't have wrote it) and should provide you with a lot of ideas for your game.

joe b.

 

[Gez]

Fighters are no match for wizards ? Then wait for 3.5. D&D is supposed to be a balanced game...

More seriously, you are thinking game-class ties will be more important than social ties, family ties, mutual interest schemes, etc. In other words, you don't have the bulk of wizards on one side, the bulk of fighter on another, the bulk of clerics on yet a third, etc.

You'll have, for example, King Alfred the Paladin. His younger brother, Barnabus the Wizard. His trusted liege, Countess Claire the Pious, the Cleric. His childhood friend, Dominico the Rogue. His wife, Emilia the Druidess. His chamberlain, Folderol the Bard. His general, Garius the Fighter. His children's preceptor, Horion the Monk. One of his child, Ina, is already a potent sorceress.

What was medieval feudalism ?

Nobles owned Land, land owner were nobles. (Some nobles didn't owned lands, but they were then vassal knights of a land-owner noble).
Nobles had owe of fealty between them.
Commoners were either burgher, villein or serf. Serfs were part of the land they lived on. Villein were rich peasant that owned their villa (latin meaning, i.e. house). Burgher lived in burgs.

How's that incompatible with D&D ?

• Clerics will be either nobles or rich burghers. They'll be fine with such a society. They've been raised in it, it's how things work. If they see injustice, like sick and starving serfs, they'll try to better their lot with some spells that will heal them and bless the fields and cattle they work on.
• Druids will like the serf thingie, people being litterally owned by the land. They'll find that the model of power where the lord is the one who own the land is the only one that makes sense.
• Wizards, even more than clerics, will be either nobles or rich burghers. They won't bother with how the society work, unless they're nobles.
• Sorcerers may hail from anywhere. If you go with the bloodline thingie, most families with sorcerers will be noble themselves, either from start or because one of their ancestor had been ennobled in reward for helping the lord with sorcery. Even if they're not noble, they will devote more interest in discovering, awakening and taming their powers than in starting a revolution.
• Bards will behave either like bards and skalds (and stay in their hometown, schooling children, and singing the prowess of the chef and his heroic warriors) or like minstrels (and wander from town to town, entairtaining the nobility and spreading news and gossip). Neither role has any interest in upsetting the political order.
• Rogues will typically live in the underground society. By definition, they have no will of upsetting the balance, they'll just want to stay below the radar of the autority, whatever it is (feudal, imperial, democratic, theocratic, communist, anarcho-syndicalist, oligarchic, gerontocratic, militaristic, they don't care).
• Monks live in their secluded mountain monastery. They depend on the noble supporting them. They have no interest in politics.
• Paladin are most often noble themselves. They will be the first to support their kings. The word paladin, by the way, was coined on the same root that the word palace. These guys are the elite order of noble knights, even if some commoners are in their rank.
• Rangers, unless they are Aragorn son of Aratorn, known as Strider, will have no interest at all in the political system. If they are Aragorn, they'll want to be king, not to destroy feudalism.
• Fighters will typically work for a noble, be payed by that noble, etc.
• Barbarians, by definition, will be foreigners in a feudal system. As such, they are a clear minority. They won't try to indoctrinate feudal folk into barbarianism, as they will either despise these "soft-skinned guys who're there just so we may plunder their wives, rape their cattle, and roast their harvests, or something like that, don't remember well my one-liner" or admire "the civilized people from the cities, who build stone tent that climb in the sky, and have plentiful food even in the dead of winter".