How on Earth do you have a tightly controlled D&D world with normal magic (Long)

[Shalewind]

I hate it when the gear becomes more important than the character!

Amen.

And magic in D&D is so odd because it tries to be balanced. The whole Vancian concept is just one way of trying to limit power so that it can be put into a level based game. Thus, the game generally tries to make it common place and normal, while ignoring the effects it would actually have on society.

That's why you have all these wonderful debates.

D&D 3E is all about the attempted balance. And any time you try to shove balance into a system, you are going to have a certain degree of friction. Imagine this. You are an awesome boxer, you can pretty much win any fight you want. If a man with a gun walks up to you and shoots you, you pretty much can't do anything about it. Now, 3E balances this situation by saying the guy with the gun only has six bullets, and he can only get new bullets once a day. Realistic? Perhaps not, but it does try at balance. As long as you want your 10th level wizards in contention with your 10th Fighters (to nudge the old age debate), you are going to have this skweded and odd magic balance that creates the "unlike fantasy literature" element.

 

[kengar]

I agree, but how do you mold the system to more closely model something like say, The Belgariad or The Sword of Truth, and have it balanced for non-spellcasters? Or are you speaking more towards the feel of the system? My major problem with many fantasy novels is that the way the author limits magic is usually by it's rarity...a dramatic device that allows him to eat his cake and have it, too, since one of those rare fellows will invariably be a cast member. Magic is insanely powerful, but some mitigating plot factor prevents or impedes it...something a PC may not have to deal with. It's a slippery slope to walk.

It's true, and it's a tough issue. The best solution (which is also the least "defined") I've found is a game where a party doesn't need a spellcaster and that the player who really wants to play one is a good roleplayer and will work to maintain an appropriate feel the magic. Decipher's LOTR RPG is a good example of a game that relies on this somewhat.

I am curious how well the d20 CoC magic system works. If I read it right, it sounds like you won't be casting more than two or three spells. EVER. Not much fun to be a spellcaster there...usually it's a 'cast-or-die' situation, or worse a 'die-now-or-cast-and-die-later' situation. Yikes.

Bear in mind that CoC is a horror RPG. The whole point of CoC is to die horribly (or worse!)

The things I especially like about CoCd20's magic system in general is that:

A) You learn spells one at a time, and finding things like old spellbooks is a BIG deal. Also, the study involved in learning a new spell is emphasized more.

B) There is a *cost* to magic. You don't just fling it around casually. Mana/Fatigue point systems address this somewhat too.

C) It moves away from the "fire & forget" Vancian model. If you know a spell, and you haven't tapped yourself out casting it once, you can cast it again.

To lose a little of the horror feel, simply ignore the SAN loss and make all ability damage temporary. Or change it to HP/subdual damage.

 

[Desdichado]

I agree, but how do you mold the system to more closely model something like say, The Belgariad or The Sword of Truth, and have it balanced for non-spellcasters? Or are you speaking more towards the feel of the system? My major problem with many fantasy novels is that the way the author limits magic is usually by it's rarity...a dramatic device that allows him to eat his cake and have it, too, since one of those rare fellows will invariably be a cast member. Magic is insanely powerful, but some mitigating plot factor prevents or impedes it...something a PC may not have to deal with. It's a slippery slope to walk.

That's all quite true -- with the exception of, again, the DarkSword trilogy, which shows one of the best high magic worlds I know. Tolkien himself has magic fairly rare, and only insanely powerful (relative to other folks) characters seem to be able to do it. From a game perspective, that's not really what I want, I probably just want the feel of magic to be different. The way it is in the WoT or even the Star Wars (force system, not magic) d20 are close to what I'd want for a non-low magic world.

I am curious how well the d20 CoC magic system works. If I read it right, it sounds like you won't be casting more than two or three spells. EVER. Not much fun to be a spellcaster there...usually it's a 'cast-or-die' situation, or worse a 'die-now-or-cast-and-die-later' situation. Yikes.

You can do better than that, especially if you're not as brutal as CoC standard on forcing Sanity checks due to other factors. The other nice thing is that being a spell-caster is an extra perk -- you don't have to dedicate your existence to be a spellcaster, as you do in most spell-casting classes. There is no spell-casting class for CoC, you can -- if you so choose -- learn to cast spells in addition to whatever else you already do.

Another low magic option that isn't as dangerous as CoC is to use the d20 Modern Occultist class (from the Shadow Chasers mini-setting) as your spellcaster class. That one allows you to cast a few more spells, but you're still fairly limited, and it's a very flavorful class -- you aren't actually a spell-caster, you can, however, make and use scrolls, wands, etc. for a limited amount of spells.

 

[Celebrim]

Wow, a whole interesting thread gets spun off a debate I'm having elsewhere and no one invited me.

It sounds like you've already got lots of good advice, Ace.

I do want to discuss the nature of D&D militaries just a bit further.

First, have you read The Illiad? Assume D&D martial activities follow the implicit rules of The Illiad. That is to say, for the most part success in battle depends not on bringing the biggest army, but on bringing the most heroes. But that doesn't mean that the army is itself useless. Even for a high level character, one hundred 3rd level fighters constitutes a significant threat. The assumption of fantasy is that actions of the heroes determine the battle, but that some form of army is required to carry the day versus the other sides heroes.

It is not necessary to counter the PC's use of magic by turning magic into technology. It is however necessary to assume that magic becomes as much a part of a nations defences as castle walls and more so. You have to assume when the castle was built that the King contracted wizards as well as engineers to build defenses of various sorts into it. These can be subtle, but they should be pervasive especially for ancient and powerful nations. The gates of the castle can be +2 enchanted objects - no unenchanted battering ram can harm them! Teleportation spells activate magical traps or cannot be done at all. Invisibility activates alarms or dispel magics or whatever. Ships of war have flame resisting spells laid upon thier timbers, and so forth. Ubiquitous magic doesn't necessarily mean everyone in the army has a +1 sword or that there are flashy effects like ray guns of disentigration everywhere. It can simply mean that magic is a part of the culture of the world at a very deep level. Ideally, if this is what you want from the world, you take steps to makes such low level magic easier and more natural than flashy effects and leave the flashy course of the world altering stuff to the PC's and thier foes.

This may significantly alter what a list of common magic items looks like toward 'Goblets of Wine Chilling' and 'Needles of Sewing' and 'Robes of Finery' and 'Everflowing Salt Shakers' or 'Hall's of Safety' and 'Masonry Blocks of Long Enduring' and 'Coats of Water Repelling' and 'Boats of Swift Transport' or whatever. The weaponry of magic can be both rarer and more exotic (and probably richer in history) than what we are used to in cannonical D&D.

(Tolkein fans will probably note that my taste in magic is heavily influenced by Tolkein - more pervasive in some ways, less pervasive in others.)

Remember, the world is vast. Just because you want magic to be rare, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Just because you have magic employed in modernistic ways, doesn't mean that the world has to take on a modern culture. Maybe that one city _is_ fabled for its magical lights which light the streets in many fantastic colors throughout the night. That doesn't mean that every city will have the wealth or desire (or rubies!) for such features, and if everyone tried imagine what the price of rubies would be! Maybe that one city does employ legions zombie labor. Maybe that other city is famed for the golems in its army, and in another they employ mastadons. In fact, the world is probably large enough for every thing you can think of.

 

[Ace]

Wow, a whole interesting thread gets spun off a debate I'm having elsewhere and no one invited me.

It sounds like you've already got lots of good advice, Ace.

Sorry about the lack of an invite, I will try to remember next time

OK seriously though, he extra advice you gave that I so calously snipped was very good.

I think my ultimate solution is to have 2 game worlds, 1 with magic as technology and a second with much lower magic

My taste in magic item alotments is basically the same as your I would guess Tolkien + a few trinkets (charged gewgaws)

The only level of magic I don't do is the standard D&D handwave of "there are lots around but they doesn't effect anything"
Yeah Right

 

[kengar]

My taste in magic item alotments is basically the same as your I would guess Tolkien + a few trinkets (charged gewgaws)

If you like a 'Tolkien feel' towards magic, and you're interested in some ideas about large scale (armies) in RPGs, check out Decipher's LOTR RPG's magic system and mass combat system. They aren't D&D, but may give you some ideas.

 

[Ace]

If you like a 'Tolkien feel' towards magic, and you're interested in some ideas about large scale (armies) in RPGs, check out Decipher's LOTR RPG's magic system and mass combat system. They aren't D&D, but may give you some ideas.

Its on the "eventual purchase" list

Thanks

 

[willpax]

From Joshua Dyal

By the way, what changes have you actually made or looked at? I'm curious myself, as I'm always on the lookout for a new magic system.

I'm on the third revision of my house rule system, which is (loosely) a Star Wars d20 adaptation. I've been working on it with the player of the wizard in my campaign, so most of it is on loose sheets of paper as we need to create it. If you're interested, I'll post the basic mechanic and a few sample spell skills for feedback in the house rules section. The next few days are going to be busy (brought work home AND sick kids), so it may take me a little while to get it all typed up.

 

[willpax]

Limiting the social effects of magic

Returning to the point of the original post, what are some of the rationales people have used to make magic more restricted than "anyone with an above average intelligence"?

So far, I've seen bloodlines as one rationale. The necessity for higher education (very rare in poorer societies) would be another. Are there other ways to make spellcasters a rare breed?

 

[hong]

Re: Limiting the social effects of magic

Returning to the point of the original post, what are some of the rationales people have used to make magic more restricted than "anyone with an above average intelligence"?

So far, I've seen bloodlines as one rationale. The necessity for higher education (very rare in poorer societies) would be another. Are there other ways to make spellcasters a rare breed?

Ban wizards.