D&D 5E How "optional" are rules like feats and multiclassing?

[Kite474]

How so? I'm not disagreeing, but if the class has flaws I would like to know. Do you mean that it needs to multiclass to work? Or feats, or something else?

1. Front loaded as all heck
2. Some pact boons are deadweight even from a non min max perspective (The blade in general is pretty bad, Tome is exellent, Chain depends on campgain but is pretty good all around)
3. Is way, way, WAY too reliant on short rest to really work its "magic" since you have so little spells your basically stuck spamming EB till the next rest where you'll use your actual spells probably all in one encounter.
4. It's abilities are done better with other classes. (Sorcere can make much better use of eldritch blast with a 2 level dip, The tome can be used to do higher mele damage with a druid cantrips and the SCAG cantrips, Paladin can do the whole "gish" thing better... Though I am not sure if it can use Warlock spells for smites. If it can great, if not still does the Bladepacts job better. Bard does the whole "face" job better and can grab the best spells the Warlock has)

All in all the warlocks got quite a few holes in it that keep it from really shining form a design standpoint. Which is a shame because I love the flavor of warlocks a lot

 

[Rhenny]

1. Front loaded as all heck
2. Some pact boons are deadweight even from a non min max perspective (The blade in general is pretty bad, Tome is exellent, Chain depends on campgain but is pretty good all around)
3. Is way, way, WAY too reliant on short rest to really work its "magic" since you have so little spells your basically stuck spamming EB till the next rest where you'll use your actual spells probably all in one encounter.
4. It's abilities are done better with other classes. (Sorcere can make much better use of eldritch blast with a 2 level dip, The tome can be used to do higher mele damage with a druid cantrips and the SCAG cantrips, Paladin can do the whole "gish" thing better... Though I am not sure if it can use Warlock spells for smites. If it can great, if not still does the Bladepacts job better. Bard does the whole "face" job better and can grab the best spells the Warlock has)

All in all the warlocks got quite a few holes in it that keep it from really shining form a design standpoint. Which is a shame because I love the flavor of warlocks a lot

I see where you are coming from. When I look at the Warlock, I feel that it is lacking and seems weird from the design standpoint, but interestingly, in my games, one player who loves to try out different characters to see how they play, is really falling in love with the Warlock. He is having a very good time with his Great Old One Warlock, and quite frankly, until he played this PC, he was much more of a min/maxer who tried to hyper boost fighters for damage potential and AC (The Half-Orc fighter kind of dude).

I think there are Warlock builds that play much more interestingly than they look, and they rely more heavily on non-combat benefits like the telepathy jazz, devil's sight, mask of many faces, etc. To me, some Warlock builds are a pretty subtle, finesse type class that suits a certain type of player.

But, agreeing with you, it does seem that some choices someone could make would be dead weight (unless a player really just likes the flavor).

 

[Ancalagon]

1. Front loaded as all heck
2. Some pact boons are deadweight even from a non min max perspective (The blade in general is pretty bad, Tome is exellent, Chain depends on campgain but is pretty good all around)
3. Is way, way, WAY too reliant on short rest to really work its "magic" since you have so little spells your basically stuck spamming EB till the next rest where you'll use your actual spells probably all in one encounter.
4. It's abilities are done better with other classes. (Sorcere can make much better use of eldritch blast with a 2 level dip, The tome can be used to do higher mele damage with a druid cantrips and the SCAG cantrips, Paladin can do the whole "gish" thing better... Though I am not sure if it can use Warlock spells for smites. If it can great, if not still does the Bladepacts job better. Bard does the whole "face" job better and can grab the best spells the Warlock has)

All in all the warlocks got quite a few holes in it that keep it from really shining form a design standpoint. Which is a shame because I love the flavor of warlocks a lot

Thank you for the reply.

I really like the flavor too - if I was playing and not running the game, a warlock is probably how I would go...

I noticed the front-loading too, but there is a lot of stuff that needs more levels to really get going. The blade pact gets more melee attacks, you need more levels to make eldrich blast hurt more etc...

I imagine you mean the druid cantrip (shillelagh), but what is SCAG?

I also noticed the reliance on the short rests to really get the most out of the class. It's an interesting variation to have less spells that can refresh quicker. However this sort of breaks with the Mystic Arcanum, which to me seems like a not so great mechanism... Only having *one* spell and one slot per spell level from 6-9 is quite limiting. This, more than anything else, bothers me about the class.

Lastly, I've noticed that this is a class where proper character is really important. If a cleric chooses poorly for his or her memorized spells, there is always tomorrow to make a better selection. With a warlock, you better pick something useful... it makes it harder to learn from errors.

 

[Kite474]

Thank you for the reply.

I really like the flavor too - if I was playing and not running the game, a warlock is probably how I would go...

I noticed the front-loading too, but there is a lot of stuff that needs more levels to really get going. The blade pact gets more melee attacks, you need more levels to make eldrich blast hurt more etc...

I imagine you mean the druid cantrip (shillelagh), but what is SCAG?

I also noticed the reliance on the short rests to really get the most out of the class. It's an interesting variation to have less spells that can refresh quicker. However this sort of breaks with the Mystic Arcanum, which to me seems like a not so great mechanism... Only having *one* spell and one slot per spell level from 6-9 is quite limiting. This, more than anything else, bothers me about the class.

Lastly, I've noticed that this is a class where proper character is really important. If a cleric chooses poorly for his or her memorized spells, there is always tomorrow to make a better selection. With a warlock, you better pick something useful... it makes it harder to learn from errors.

SCAG is the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide. In it is the Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade Cantrips. Being as the tomelock allows you to grab cantrips you grab those two. Add shillelagh with those and you start doing a good amount of damage pretty quickly.

 

[Ancalagon]

SCAG is the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide. In it is the Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade Cantrips. Being as the tomelock allows you to grab cantrips you grab those two. Add shillelagh with those and you start doing a good amount of damage pretty quickly.

Thank you - but I'm not going to be adding extra material for my first campaign! Core books only please (plus the setting, of course)

edit: Also, is the tome getting shillelagh such a big deal when the blade pact has multiple attacks?

 

[Kite474]

Thank you - but I'm not going to be adding extra material for my first campaign! Core books only please (plus the setting, of course)

edit: Also, is the tome getting shillelagh such a big deal when the blade pact has multiple attacks?

Generally if your going in melee most of your damage will be coming in from your ability score. Shillelagh basically allows you to circumvent having to choose the necessary invocations to be a passing Bladelock you also get the added bonus of being able to be more SAD without the SCAG cantrips you'll do slightly less damage in melee. There is also the fact that you just plain do more damage spamming Eldritch Blast which you will still have as a option as Tomelock.

 

[Azurewraith]

1. Front loaded as all heck
2. Some pact boons are deadweight even from a non min max perspective (The blade in general is pretty bad, Tome is exellent, Chain depends on campgain but is pretty good all around)
3. Is way, way, WAY too reliant on short rest to really work its "magic" since you have so little spells your basically stuck spamming EB till the next rest where you'll use your actual spells probably all in one encounter.
4. It's abilities are done better with other classes. (Sorcere can make much better use of eldritch blast with a 2 level dip, The tome can be used to do higher mele damage with a druid cantrips and the SCAG cantrips, Paladin can do the whole "gish" thing better... Though I am not sure if it can use Warlock spells for smites. If it can great, if not still does the Bladepacts job better. Bard does the whole "face" job better and can grab the best spells the Warlock has)

All in all the warlocks got quite a few holes in it that keep it from really shining form a design standpoint. Which is a shame because I love the flavor of warlocks a lot

As for point 1: The fighter is just as front loaded, barbarians are also pretty front loaded its not just a lock issue.

Point 2: Cant deny you have a point here in that chain is pretty meh tome is also a bit meh not to the same degree as chain the pact of blade is also meh out side of fighter 1lock x dip for darkness devils sight abuse.
Point 3: Again ill direct you to the fighter they and monks they are pretty short rest dependent. Nothing wrong with spamming EB either its no different to some one spamming attack.

Onto point 4: Is tome better than blade at melee? As for gishes ye paladins are borderline OP on 5e but a fighter1/demonbladelock isn't no slouch. Cant speak for the sorcerer EB as well haven't seen it in action or looked into it. I think the SCAG cantrips are overrated but thats just me

 

[S'mon]

Don't use those rules if the game is being played by those new to the hobby, but as soon as they get the hang of the game take those stabilisers off and let them choose feats and allow them to multiclass if they want. They will have more fun if they can develop their own PC the way they want.

My experience of 3e and Pathfinder (and to a much lesser extent 4e) is that letting players develop their PC the way they want can mean less fun for the other players & GM. It can also mean less
fun for that player - personally when I'm given options I feel pressure to choose the right one to 'pull my weight', and I enjoy not having that pressure on me. (It's a big problem playing a 5e
Paladin - I feel like I should be selecting & using the right spells to support the group, Cleric-style, not just divine smiting, and I'd rather not have that pressure).

 

[Azurewraith]

My experience of 3e and Pathfinder (and to a much lesser extent 4e) is that letting players develop their PC the way they want can mean less fun for the other players & GM. It can also mean less
fun for that player - personally when I'm given options I feel pressure to choose the right one to 'pull my weight', and I enjoy not having that pressure on me. (It's a big problem playing a 5e
Paladin - I feel like I should be selecting & using the right spells to support the group, Cleric-style, not just divine smiting, and I'd rather not have that pressure).

I would say smiting away is supporting your group as dead monsters don't pose any threat besides you got lay on hands and your aura to support in non smitey fashion

 

[Ancalagon]

My experience of 3e and Pathfinder (and to a much lesser extent 4e) is that letting players develop their PC the way they want can mean less fun for the other players & GM.

This is a bit of my concern, bad choices can create a large power differential. But for me as a GM the more complex the rules are for character creation the more time I have to spend on the mechanics (crunch) of an NPC (one where combat is a possibility) vs the roleplaying aspect (who is this person, what is their desires, motives etc).