D&D 5E How "optional" are rules like feats and multiclassing?

[Azurewraith]

This is a bit of my concern, bad choices can create a large power differential. But for me as a GM the more complex the rules are for character creation the more time I have to spend on the mechanics (crunch) of an NPC (one where combat is a possibility) vs the roleplaying aspect (who is this person, what is their desires, motives etc).

I wouldn't worry to much about full complex stats for npcs. They don't need to play by the rules. There's allways the appendix at the back of the mm for rough stats. Just alter them on the fly if you think pat the butcher is a bit to much of a slouch in combat turns out his great grandad was a sorcerer and now pats chucking fireballs why because rule of cool.

 

[S'mon]

I wouldn't worry to much about full complex stats for npcs. They don't need to play by the rules. There's allways the appendix at the back of the mm for rough stats. Just alter them on the fly if you think pat the butcher is a bit to much of a slouch in combat turns out his great grandad was a sorcerer and now pats chucking fireballs why because rule of cool.

I find that editing the NPC stats at the back, adapting monster stats, and occasionally building new NPCs along the lines of the back of book stats, definitely does it for me.

 

[Azurewraith]

I find that editing the NPC stats at the back, adapting monster stats, and occasionally building new NPCs along the lines of the back of book stats, definitely does it for me.

I usually don't even state my npcs until combat hits then I decied pat the butcher has a decent strength and con and an increased crit range from all those years of severing spines

 

[Savevsdeath]

As for point 1: The fighter is just as front loaded, barbarians are also pretty front loaded its not just a lock issue.

Point 2: Cant deny you have a point here in that chain is pretty meh tome is also a bit meh not to the same degree as chain the pact of blade is also meh out side of fighter 1lock x dip for darkness devils sight abuse.
Point 3: Again ill direct you to the fighter they and monks they are pretty short rest dependent. Nothing wrong with spamming EB either its no different to some one spamming attack.

Onto point 4: Is tome better than blade at melee? As for gishes ye paladins are borderline OP on 5e but a fighter1/demonbladelock isn't no slouch. Cant speak for the sorcerer EB as well haven't seen it in action or looked into it. I think the SCAG cantrips are overrated but thats just me

I have disagreed and will continue to very vocally disagree with the assertion that Blade and Chain pacts are inferior. They really, really work out great in actual play when you realize that a bladelock is simply NOT meant to be a primary melee specialist like a fighter or barbarian. He's a caster who can also melee if he must, and should be utilizing his spells and invocations in and out of combat to gain every advantage, and those are some very unique advantages. My favorite combination is the tiefling fiend patron bladelock who takes hellish rebuke and armor of agathys as two of his warlock spells and combines it with fiendish resilience and Medium Armor Proficiency to be a crazy-good retribution tank. It's a super-fun build that just sucks up damage and hands it back all day long, and keps his THP topped off via fiend pact every time he demolishes an enemy. With the creation of SCAG's Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade, the bladelock becomes a lockdown machine, and is super fun to play.

The other one I love is the Great Old One/Chain Pact super-scout/spy character. This one is less of a combatant and more of an out of combat utility guy - at-will telepathy, an invisible mobile viewer who you can see through, the Mask of Many Faces and One with Shadows invocations, and spells like Friends and charm make for the ultimate social monster and scouting machine. And you can STILL do both of the above builds while having Eldritch Blast if you need to fight at range.

Warlock is just, IMHO, the best 5E class. It can do everything, and it doesn't have as much random crap to track, nor does it need to go all day without any way to do its thing if there aren't long rests available. Warlock is the energizer bunny of classes, and it combines well with every other class. For me, when I make a 5E character it comes down to 'Warlock or not a warlock' for class choice. The only other classes that compete consistently for me are Paladin and Rogue.

 

[Azurewraith]

I have disagreed and will continue to very vocally disagree with the assertion that Blade and Chain pacts are inferior. They really, really work out great in actual play when you realize that a bladelock is simply NOT meant to be a primary melee specialist like a fighter or barbarian. He's a caster who can also melee if he must, and should be utilizing his spells and invocations in and out of combat to gain every advantage, and those are some very unique advantages. My favorite combination is the tiefling fiend patron bladelock who takes hellish rebuke and armor of agathys as two of his warlock spells and combines it with fiendish resilience and Medium Armor Proficiency to be a crazy-good retribution tank. It's a super-fun build that just sucks up damage and hands it back all day long, and keps his THP topped off via fiend pact every time he demolishes an enemy. With the creation of SCAG's Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade, the bladelock becomes a lockdown machine, and is super fun to play.

The other one I love is the Great Old One/Chain Pact super-scout/spy character. This one is less of a combatant and more of an out of combat utility guy - at-will telepathy, an invisible mobile viewer who you can see through, the Mask of Many Faces and One with Shadows invocations, and spells like Friends and charm make for the ultimate social monster and scouting machine. And you can STILL do both of the above builds while having Eldritch Blast if you need to fight at range.

Warlock is just, IMHO, the best 5E class. It can do everything, and it doesn't have as much random crap to track, nor does it need to go all day without any way to do its thing if there aren't long rests available. Warlock is the energizer bunny of classes, and it combines well with every other class. For me, when I make a 5E character it comes down to 'Warlock or not a warlock' for class choice. The only other classes that compete consistently for me are Paladin and Rogue.

Never thought of doing it as pure bladelock I have allways dipped the 1fighter for armour and con saves may have to give it a whirl your way.

As for best class that's paladin hands down it tanks, heals and dps who needs stealth or social skills when you have command and righteous fury!

 

[Li Shenron]

But are these options really optional?

They are totally optional.

Really, nobody is getting "crippled" if you don't include feats and multiclassing. Naturally, these options increase the complexity of characters, so players who only play for "builds" will have less fun, but they are playing a game within (or should I say "outside"?) the game, which runs perfectly fine with single-classed PCs and no feats.

If you want to lower complexity even more, my personal suggestion is to also not include races in your game. As strange as it sounds, it works great for beginners, because each race comes with several modifications to your stats and unique benefits, significantly increasing the complexity of a 1st-level character and the character creation time. Ignoring the racial benefits* or having all be humans makes the game a lot simpler while the players get used the rules system.

*you can still let players pick a race, but have only narrative differences

 

[Ancalagon]

I can see how having no race would simplify things even further, but I think my players would riot if I did that

 

[Arial Black]

They are totally optional.

Really, nobody is getting "crippled" if you don't include feats and multiclassing. Naturally, these options increase the complexity of characters, so players who only play for "builds" will have less fun, but they are playing a game within (or should I say "outside"?) the game, which runs perfectly fine with single-classed PCs and no feats.

If you want to lower complexity even more, my personal suggestion is to also not include races in your game. As strange as it sounds, it works great for beginners, because each race comes with several modifications to your stats and unique benefits, significantly increasing the complexity of a 1st-level character and the character creation time. Ignoring the racial benefits* or having all be humans makes the game a lot simpler while the players get used the rules system.

*you can still let players pick a race, but have only narrative differences

Yeah!

For even more simplicity, only allow the fighter class (and only the champion path), and only allow longswords.

The players can narrate their PC as a wizard if they want.

Anyone who doesn't do this is a dirty min-maxer who only cares about game mechanics and doesn't care about role-playing at all.

 

[Li Shenron]

Yeah!

For even more simplicity, only allow the fighter class (and only the champion path), and only allow longswords.

The players can narrate their PC as a wizard if they want.

Anyone who doesn't do this is a dirty min-maxer who only cares about game mechanics and doesn't care about role-playing at all.

It's not because of min-maxing at all.

I have ignored races in three different gaming groups because I had a few absolute beginners, and everyone else was anyway new to 5e, and the "racial package" included as much stuff comparable in quantity to the stuff a class gets at 1st level, thus doubling the complexity. Some of the racial stuff is very nice, but others are of marginal utility, and in addition some proficiencies can be redundant with class (which can cause discussions and changes of mind, thus delays).

In my personal case I also wanted to speed up the preparation phase big time (which is what the OP is about) by having the players build their PCs "in broad strokes", meaning to choose class+race+background, but skipping the details (which were preselected by me, including spells and equipment). So by using standard stat arrays and raceless-races* I was able to print out near-ready character sheets.

*in one group I totally skipped racial mechanics and just went with narrative, in two other groups I used "simplified" races that granted only a couple of features which were easiest to add to the character sheet without changing anything else (e.g. darkvision, Lucky, stonecunning...).

 

[Arial Black]

Forgive me Li Shenron, this wasn't really aimed at you.

I agree that a simplified game is useful for people who have never played before, but those training wheels should be taken off ASAP.

There are a couple of themes in this thread that, I admit, press my buttons! The first is the old Stormwind Fallacy; the fallacious assertion that anyone who likes/is good at character optimisation in a mechanical/rules sense cannot be good at/like the role-playing aspect of the game. That any attempt at 'min-maxing' somehow demonstrates that they aren't a 'real' role-player. That any attempt at multi-classing/using feats, since they can be used to optimise a PC, that simply using these rules demonstrates that you aren't a 'real' role-player and therefore 'must' by using those rules for selfish, powergaming motives.

This is, of course, total bollocks. A person can like or dislike these two aspects of our hobby independently. Indeed, the pure role-playing aspect of your PC may be better expressed by a multiclass PC, or a PC with a particular feat or feats.

The second button is this: it is totally okay to have your own view about whether or not you like and want to use feats and/or multiclassing. Is anyone saying, "I like multiclassing, therefore everyone in my game must multiclass"? No, that would be absurd!

But there are some who are saying things to the effect of, "I don't like multiclassing, I don't think it is needed to make a PC, therefore no-one else is allowed to multiclass, even if that other person can think of a good reason!"

Y'know what? If you don't like feats/multiclassing, don't give your PC those features; I'm not saying you have to. But don't tell me what I can or cannot do based on your likes and dislikes! You make your PC, I'll make mine!