How Per Encounter power recharging should work

[Corinth]

But you don't WANT per-encounter balancing. You want everything to be basically at-will, except after a few rounds you have to start spending half your actions "recharging" powers.

How would this work for "leader" classes? Either WOTC would have to cut out powerful per-encounter healing spells, or else the party could literally keep fighting forever, because the cleric's dishing out a huge heal every other round.

How would it work for controller/"artillery" classes in large-scale battles? A level 10 wizard can just hover over an entire army of orcs and toss out fireballs until every goblinoid is face-down in the mud? (Of course, he might need to have a cleric with him to keep him healed forever.)

Hell, even striker classes would be messed up. With no recharge mechanic, you can give rogues per-encounter abilities that let them vanish, or skitter away from the middle of a melee without taking damage. But if all they have to do is spend a round out to recharge, they can just backstab > vanish > recharge indefinitely.

In other words, you only think in-combat recharges are a good idea because in sources like Bo9S, the classes using maneuvers were the ones who traditionally had limitless resources anyway. A 3e fighter (or warblade) could battle all day and night without losing effectiveness, but he was limited because the cleric would run out of healing spells eventually. In 4e, they want ALL classes to have similar pacing, which means EVERYONE needs limits. Infinite recharges, even if they have an opportunity cost of a round, are broken.

The answer is in crowd control.

The healer heals nothing when he's held, silenced, or polymorphed into a sheep. The striker strikes nothing when he's encased in a block of ice. The defender defends nothing if he's rooted in place. No one does anything if they are stunned. Lock out, shut down, close off, and then maneuver into position before focus-firing the primary target down. (Always, always focus your group's firepower on a single target at a time when you can; the faster a group kills their enemies, the faster they win the fight.)

This is how you deal with in-combat recharging of anything. It's why Controllers exist, and why groups that know how to best exploit various powers of crowd control are superior in a fight to groups that don't.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

The answer is in crowd control.

The healer heals nothing when he's held, silenced, or polymorphed into a sheep. The striker strikes nothing when he's encased in a block of ice. The defender defends nothing if he's rooted in place. No one does anything if they are stunned. Lock out, shut down, close off, and then maneuver into position before focus-firing the primary target down. (Always, always focus your group's firepower on a single target at a time when you can; the faster a group kills their enemies, the faster they win the fight.)

This is how you deal with in-combat recharging of anything. It's why Controllers exist, and why groups that know how to best exploit various powers of crowd control are superior in a fight to groups that don't.

Yes, that is how a PC-style group works. But I'm talking about verisimilitude problems that come into play in battle situations that AREN'T based on two balanced groups of powerful characters.

Take that goblin army. Should a level 10 wizard with a level 10 cleric - still heroic-tier, mind you - be able to take down HUNDREDS of goblins simply because they don't have a spellcaster or high-level character with them to "lock down" spellcasters? With a per-encounter system, at least they're limited to surgical strikes on the enemy, rather than just nuking forever.

 

[Corinth]

Yes, that is how a PC-style group works. But I'm talking about verisimilitude problems that come into play in battle situations that AREN'T based on two balanced groups of powerful characters.

Take that goblin army. Should a level 10 wizard with a level 10 cleric - still heroic-tier, mind you - be able to take down HUNDREDS of goblins simply because they don't have a spellcaster or high-level character with them to "lock down" spellcasters? With a per-encounter system, at least they're limited to surgical strikes on the enemy, rather than just nuking forever.

Yes, that 10th level wizard and that 10th level cleric should be able to take down a hundreds-strong goblin army that somehow failed to find a way to shut the casters down. The goblins' leadership should be smart enough to figure that out; failure to account for it is the real verisimilitude problem when talking about fantasy gaming in general and D&D in particular.

 

[Dragonblade]

But you don't WANT per-encounter balancing. You want everything to be basically at-will, except after a few rounds you have to start spending half your actions "recharging" powers.

I view at will as requiring no recharge. Per Encounter to me means being available every encounter, not necessarily usable once per encounter only no matter what. Even WotC has hinted that there will be some kind of refresh, they just said don't get attached to the mechanics used in Bo9S.

How would this work for "leader" classes? Either WOTC would have to cut out powerful per-encounter healing spells, or else the party could literally keep fighting forever, because the cleric's dishing out a huge heal every other round.

Encounter difficulty in 4e is no longer based on forcing the party to use up limited resources. I don't see any issue here. And every other round is a pretty long time. Most 3.5 fights were finished in about 5 rounds or less. Besides, outside of combat 4e clerics can theoretically heal all day long with no problem at all even if you assume a 1 minute refresh and no in-battle recharge.

How would it work for controller/"artillery" classes in large-scale battles? A level 10 wizard can just hover over an entire army of orcs and toss out fireballs until every goblinoid is face-down in the mud? (Of course, he might need to have a cleric with him to keep him healed forever.)

Under the presumed refresh mechanic of one minute and you're per encounter powers are back, they could still do this. They just go rest for a minute and come right back. Heck, they can do this in 3.5 without a problem. Any wizard with Greater Invisibility and a Wand of Fireballs can decimate any army.

Again you are applying 3.5 thinking to 4e mechanics. I don't think this would be an issue and presumably flying will be much more limited in 4e. Also orcs probably have orc shamans with their own per encounter powers they could use to nuke the wizard right back.

Hell, even striker classes would be messed up. With no recharge mechanic, you can give rogues per-encounter abilities that let them vanish, or skitter away from the middle of a melee without taking damage. But if all they have to do is spend a round out to recharge, they can just backstab > vanish > recharge indefinitely.

Again, there is no problem here. So what if the rogue can come up with a sneak attack combo? I don't think it will be quite as easy as you think given the new rules for AoOs and combat advantage but so what. The rogue can move in, and attack. Move back out again. Spend a turn recharging. Move back and attack. That allows them to use the same per encounter power only once every 3 or 4 rounds!

Seriously, if you think thats broken, then we'll simply never see eye to eye because our gaming philosophy is just radically different.

 

[BASHMAN]

Well this is another point that WotC can take from WoW (or City of heroes or most other mmos)-- in COMBAT your powers should have limited uses-- which in CoH or WoW are dealt with by the recharge time-- usually several seconds. Off combat, that time doesn't matter at all-- you can sit there and heal the entire party to max and wait for your mana to refill before going to the next fight. But in combat, those recharge times matter a lot-- how many attacks will the enemy get to make before you can use your power again.

In 4e I think that a lot of the per encounter abilities in combat will simply be at will when not in combat (I like the above idea of any situation where you could take 10). If you want to recharge in combat it should cost you something-- an action point, take damage, a standard action waisted, etc. I think a full round action to recover 1 power is too restrictive, and the warblades' attack an enemy to regain all powers is rediculously easy-- but spending a standard action to regain 1 power I think is fair.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

In 4e I think that a lot of the per encounter abilities in combat will simply be at will when not in combat (I like the above idea of any situation where you could take 10). If you want to recharge in combat it should cost you something-- an action point, take damage, a standard action waisted, etc. I think a full round action to recover 1 power is too restrictive, and the warblades' attack an enemy to regain all powers is rediculously easy-- but spending a standard action to regain 1 power I think is fair.

Did you read Bo9S?
Full Round Action for One Power = Swordsage
Fullroundaction + the ability (need not) to attack as swift action to recharge = Warblade
Recharge all Powers when you have no Power left = Crusader

The recharge mechanic was important, because all Powers/Maneuvers were per encounter!
Why do you need at will, if you can rechrg that easy? An how powerful should a Power be, you could use every second round ("but spending a standard action to regain 1 power I think is fair")?
Double at will?
I hope for a more bigbang for the per encounter powers!

 

[Dragonblade]

In light of the release of the DDM rulebook, it now seems as if the recharge mechanic for a specific per encounter power will be built into the power itself instead of having a one size fits all refresh mechanic.

That is an elegant way of handling it. Powers that might be a little too good if allowed to be used repeatedly can be limited, and powers where it makes sense to allow repeated use can do that.

I like it. Granted this is just the minis game rules, but if this is how it works in the RPG, then I'll be satisfied.

 

[Nine Hands]

Here is another example from left field. When I was a kid I watched Voltron a lot. Voltron was basically an older anime series where a group of giant lion shaped mecha were piloted by our young heroes. The lions could merge into a bigger mecha called Voltron. Voltron would struggle and fight against other giant monsters until finally he would form a giant sword (e.g. "Form Blazing Sword!" ) and then would proceed to instantly cut the monster in half. Game over.

As a kid, I always found this extremely dissatisfying. Why doesn't Voltron just form the sword right out of the gate and end the battle? Why wait until he gets his ass kicked before he does it? Clearly this was so that the episode could add tension and drama and still wrap up in 30 minutes. But it was arbitrary and illogical. If this was a D&D game and the Blazing Sword was a Per Encounter power, then it makes sense. But only when viewed in the context of the game. In narrative format, it just simply makes no sense.

And to me good game design should not only offer balanced mechanics, but they should make sense even when a game session is viewed from a narrative perspective.

Actually the Blazing Sword has a 10 round warm up time before it could be used.

 

[Nyeshet]

Brain storming a bit here . . .

Some seem to dislike the randomness of per encounter abilities - the fact that it may be once per 3 rounds or (uncommonly) once per 3 minutes or (quite rarely) even once per 13 minutes; the fact that multiple "once per encounter" abilities can be used one after the other, instead of allowing for multiple uses of a single "per encounter ability;" questions about recharging time in and out of combat; and so forth.

What if per encounter were changed to mean "once per 1d4 rounds" (akin to dragon breath weapon usage in 3(.5)e)? In such an instance, one might use the same per encounter ability multiple times in a single encounter, but not every round (or even every other round, as often as not). Also, it is a limiting factor that would prevent it from replacing per round at will abilities (as could easily happen in short battles**), and it does not need a recharge mechanic as such is built into it. Once something as strenuous as a "per encounter" ability is used, it simply takes a few rounds before it can be used again. Maybe an action point could reduce or remove it, allowing for direct usage of another "per encounter" ability without having to wait 1d4 rounds.

If 1d4 rounds seems too often, it could just as easily be made 1d6 or have +1 added to it (so that there is no chance of using it the following round) or even both (1d6+1, for 2-7 rounds).

Granted, circumstances will no doubt limit when a per encounter ability can be used anyway. Some may only be usable upon surprised foes or during a sneak attack. Other might only work if the foe is bloodied - meaning more often than not that it could not be used until well into the fight. Still others might require specific terrain or situations or creature types or can only come after certain other prior actions (on the part of self, allies, or foes).

** (By this I mean using "per encounter" abilities one after the other until all are used up, then using "at will" abilities to finish off the enemy. No doubt the design of per encounter abilities will make such tactics as these unlikely (for reasons stated immediately prior), but certainly not impossible should they go ahead with "once per ability per encounter.")