OSR How Sacrosanct Are Saving Throws?

[Sacrosanct]

In an OSR game emulating TSR era D&D, how sacrosanct are saving throws to capture the feel of early D&D? From a design perspective, it seems easier just to include them as part of standard ability checks rather than have separate saving throw categories. so if you do that, does it take away the feel of early D&D? I'm on the fence either way.

 

[Campbell]

In an OSR game emulating TSR era D&D, how sacrosanct are saving throws to capture the feel of early D&D? From a design perspective, it seems easier just to include them as part of standard ability checks rather than have separate saving throw categories. so if you do that, does it take away the feel of early D&D? I'm on the fence either way.

I do not think they are sacrosanct. I think OSR play is about the core skilled play loop rather than designing to feel like early D&D. Into The Odd and Electric Bastionland for instance do an amazing job of providing that core experience in a tight mechanical package that is much easier for most players to get into.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Only you can answer that?

 

[Voadam]

Only you can answer that?

Sometimes you can only tell from the outside looking in.

 

[Minigiant]

In the OSR sense, it really comes down if you see things like poisons, spells, and magic items as being ALL the same in the sense of defending against them.

If defending against a fireball, a cold ray, and a dream beam is the same, it makes sense to link them in the OSR sense. The more different they are, the more it makes sense to link them to ability scores.

 

[Voadam]

Think about 5e and Castles & Crusades if you have played them. The saves are basically ability checks with a possible bonus instead of the B/X or AD&D save categories.

Both are designed to feel more old schoolish with a d20 base.

Similarly Swords & Wizardry uses a flat class and level-based save number and adjusts for things like certain classes getting bonuses on certain defined saves and is designed to work as an Oe clone.

Even B/X and AD&D had slightly different categories.

I do not think the exact mechanics are a big deal for the feel of playing OSR.

 

[ninjayeti]

If your objective is emulating the feel of the old editions, I'd think you'd want to emulate the clunky parts too. Honestly, a big part of "TSR era D&D" was looking up numbers on a chart. Obviously, one tweak is not going to ruin the experience but is still moving it a step away from how people played at the time.

 

[Jack Daniel]

In an OSR game emulating TSR era D&D, how sacrosanct are saving throws to capture the feel of early D&D? From a design perspective, it seems easier just to include them as part of standard ability checks rather than have separate saving throw categories. so if you do that, does it take away the feel of early D&D? I'm on the fence either way.

They're not sacred. It's not uncommon, for example, to replace the five traditional saving throw categories with a single saving throw number (like Swords & Wizardry does). Doing this loses out on some of the nuance (it's supposed to be much easier to make a save vs. death or poison than a save vs. spell or dragon's breath), but it does simplify things.

One thing you mustn't do, though, is replace saving throws with plain, unmodified roll-under ability checks. Roll-under ability checks are a bad mechanic already when it comes to handling ordinary actions, simply because of the way scores are generated in the TSR/OSR systems. (A character who has Dex 13 shouldn't be 25% likelier to successfully balance themselves while walking across a narrow span than someone with Dex 8!) But saving throws are supposed to be class and especially level dependent! High-level characters are supposed to make nearly all kinds of saving throws far more often than not (which is one the balancing factors that keeps magic from dominating the game, something that was utterly lost in the transition from 2nd to 3rd Edition).

 

[Lanefan]

I'd keep 'em, if for no other reason that having both saving throws and ability checks in the tollbox gives you more flexibility on how to resolve any given situation.

 

[Ath-kethin]

I love saving throws conceptually, and I'd keep 'em. I will stay, however, that IMO the best saving throws system was the Fort/Ref/Wil setup from 3.x. it was easy and intuitive, and manages to keep the saving throw space alive while making it much easier to implement.