log in or register to remove this ad

 

5E How should be the future Oriental Adventures.

* A Spanish tells about a worker who congratulates his boss for the new car he has just bought, and this answers:

- "Do you see this car? If you work a lot thanks your hard efforts.... I will can buy a better car".

(Maybe the joke isn't fun, but it shows the point of view by lots of Spanish workers).

* I know Puella Magi is not kid-friendly, but I meant a softer/Disney erstaz version.

I will pose again the questions:

- Do the PC races any change or retcon about lore or racial traits, for example adding furry face traits to the hengeyokai to be more kawai (cute)? how should the racial traits of the
dokkaebi (korean fae) as PC race?

- What elements from the modern Asian speculative fiction (manga/manwha/manhua + anime/donghua) could or should be added to the xuanhuan D&D to attack new players among the youngest generations?





 

log in or register to remove this ad

Count_Zero

Adventurer
* Why not to produce a game-live show where J-idols play one-shot module based in J-Horror movies or monster from folklore? Or kid-friendly innocent maho shojo (magical girl, like puella magi, sailor moon or pretty cure) who have to "heal" cursed objects what have become tsukumogami.
Short answer - because the actual plays and streams that work the most (Critical Role, Friends at the Table, etc.) are ones done by people with a familiarity to gaming, and who have gamed together before, where the action plays out organically - where the players are comfortable to express themselves as their characters. Despite how the industry is depicted in idol anime, the actual J-Idol industry (and I'm assuming K-idols as well), is intensely controlled - to enough of a point that even if you've got a bunch of tabletop groups going amoung members of, say, AKB48, I don't know if the people who are responsible for promoting the group would be willing to let them do role-play in public.

This is actually why, from what I've heard - I haven't dug into this too much because people aren't subtitling NicoNico videos - the Japanese RPG Actual Play Videos out there tend not to have the players on camera. The players are normally audio only with some degree of voice masking, or they're taking a Replay and having some Vocaloids act out the dialog while animating everything through the Miku Dance software.

I do agree that WotC can do a wuxia campaign setting that is not Kara-Tur - but Kamigawa isn't it, because Kamigawa is feudal Japan. They actually do have a Wuxia setting in Magic the Gathering - Tarkir - that they can work with.

Similarly, they also did the Dragon Fist RPG around the time of the transition between AD&D 2nd edition and D&D 3rd edition. If they still have the rights to that setting, I think bringing some Chinese American writers in and reworking the setting for 5th edition would be a good idea.

That said, if they're doing Wuxia, they'd probably want to do something in the setting book that they haven't done for other settings thus far, which is doing notes on play for several different eras - an era inspired by the Warring States/Romance of the Three Kingdoms when the country is in the middle of civil war, an era inspired by Outlaws of the Water Margin (where the area isn't unified but does have a degree of political stability), and an era that is inspired by the sort of Ming Dynasty period China that serves as the backdrop for most of the classic wuxia films (where you have something of a centralized unified government, but with various corrupt regional governors throwing their weight around - the period where you're most likely to run into a plot masterminded by a Eunuch like in Dragon Inn).
 

Count_Zero

Adventurer
- Do the PC races any change or retcon about lore or racial traits, for example adding furry face traits to the hengeyokai to be more kawai (cute)? how should the racial traits of the dokkaebi (korean fae) as PC race?


That's up to the people who write the book, and making those changes isn't going to be what gets someone to change their mind and buy the book.


- What elements from the modern Asian speculative fiction (manga/manwha/manhua + anime/donghua) could or should be added to the xuanhuan D&D to attack new players among the youngest generations?
(sighs and turns his chair around backwards)

WotC isn't getting the Chinese market. It's not happening. I tap-danced around things to avoid getting into modern politics, but there's no avoiding it when it comes to getting into the Chinese market. You've already mentioned the previous stories about not being able to depict Ancient China, or ghosts and the undead, or time travel, and that sort of thing. However, you've missed the three big ticking timebombs in the middle of the room that WotC will have to contend with when it comes to the Chinese market, and in particular, dealing with Chinese censors.




In short - the new Chinese security law has a vast scope that can leave people who aren't Chinese citizens subject to incarceration by China if we criticize the Chinese government for things like their crackdown on the Hong Kong Protests, or their treatment of the Uighur population. Are they going to request the US or Spanish or Canadian government extradite us for doing those things? No, not likely. However, if we go through a Chinese airport, or take a trip to China, could they decide to arrest us? Yes. This would apply to the staff members of WotC who would need to go to China in order to get government approval to sell the book there. Even if those staff members themselves had not said anything wrong, if someone else at WotC had been too open in their criticism of the Chinese government, that could open those staff members for retaliatory arrest - and could put the staff at their Chinese publisher at risk for getting disappeared in retaliation as well.

Additionally, this could actually end up conflicting with WotC's efforts to get rid of "evil races" from D&D as well - if the Chinese government objects to, for example, a culture that's a little too close to the Uighur getting depicted respectfully, and the censors ask them to depict them in a more... traditionally Orcish manner, the authors of the book now end up stuck in a bad situation. Similarly, if they just do a different edition in China with the D&D Trade Dress and the bigoted content that the Chinese government wants, that's still something that people outside of China will find out about, and will get upset about.

In short - right now - actively seeking to make a Wuxia setting for the express purpose of attempting to appeal to the Chinese market (as in the market in China) could potentially put WotC in more hot water than Paradox and NuWhiteWolf got in for the section about Chechnya in the Camarilla Sourcebook for Nu-Vampire. Hasbro's staff may not pay full attention to the rest of the RPG industry, but WotC definitely does, and when you have a land mine that clearly marked it would be an act of negligent stupidity, from a business standpoint, and from an ethical standpoint, to go jump on it to see if it goes off.

If WotC were to put a wuxia inspired sourcebook out as part of a new Asian Adventures initiative, the smart option would be to bring a bunch of writers of Chinese ancestry on board from the US, Canada, UK, or wherever, and ask them to write a setting book for wuxia themed campaigns, give important bullet points (what tonally they're looking for, the balance of setting to crunch, etc), and put them in positions of authority on the project, from art selection to writing and editing.
 

Kobold Avenger

Adventurer
There should be little to no effort aimed at putting D&D the tabletop RPG in Asia, it's not where the market is or could be worked with. The best thing they could try is a novel or two, or one of the video games which was a lot of resources for localization.

It's like trying to get D&D to the (Sub-Saharan) African market (not counting South Africa which probably has a mostly Afrikaner player base) while ignoring Black D&D players in North America, who actually are more likely to play tabletop D&D then those on the continent.
 

My opinion is the possible future Wuxia D&D isn't only for the TTRPG but other products, as videogames, toys, comics, novels and media productions. This has been Hasbro's plan since the beggining.

I imagine a future where TTRPG will be played by online videochat with virtual tabletops, and when the players talk the figures also move the lips. Today there is that technology. Let's say they will "storytelling videogames", and some streamers will use this to earn money with its homebred version of Critical Role. Some mangaka aspirants could use these games to introducise in the market and promoting their own webtoons(digital manwhas).

The key about this matter is how to create the right world.

Has anybody complained about the children cartoons Xiaolin Showdown, Yin Yang Yo or Samurai Jack?

Magic: the Gathering has got cards about Chinese culture, and also some troubles about censorship in China.






---

Edited to mention Akuma, a Spanish anime-themed RPG (I am afair not translated into English yet), and Wayward, other urban fantasy by Image Comics set in Japan.
 
Last edited:

Count_Zero

Adventurer
There should be little to no effort aimed at putting D&D the tabletop RPG in Asia, it's not where the market is or could be worked with. The best thing they could try is a novel or two, or one of the video games which was a lot of resources for localization.
This point I disagree on - just because D&D isn't going to be #1 in Japan doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. Japan has a thriving tabletop RPG scene, and it's clear that in Japan as in the US, there are plenty of designers of CRPGs who also play tabletop games. If you don't believe me - look at the Souls games (Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1-3), and then look at Dave Sutherland's "A Paladin In Hell." It's clear someone at From Software picked up the AD&D 1E PHB, looked at that art, and had their imagination captured the same way so many of ours have been.

It's just you don't get that market by making a book that's designed to be "Supa-kawaii" and aggressively pandering to whatever anime trope a western publisher thinks will appeal to a Japanese market. That reeks of fakery and desperation, and your audience can tell. From what I've found, TSR before, and presumably WotC now have partnered with Japanese publishers to localize D&D for the Japanese market (historically it was Group SNE, not sure if that's the case now) - so they're not needing to dedicate their own resources for translation and localization - domestic publishers are handling the same thing for the English versions of Japanese tabletop RPGs like Ryuutama, Maid, and Tenra Bansho Zero.

Those publishers have a better understanding of what the Japanese market is looking for, with the question then being why, and that requires information we don't have access to (market research data, the terms of WotC's contract, and information on what happened in various private meetings we weren't in).
 

Nytmare

David Jose
My opinion is maybe a mash-up mixing all the different Asian cultures would be more pollitically correct to be ideologically neuter, precisally to avoid the analogies with real nations, because this could cause controversies.
You do see how this is practically indistinguishable from what the original OA was, and why it, along with so many other "Eastern Themed" products are problematic?

If you're making a series of recognizable generalizations and stereotypes about hundreds of different cultures that have been lumped together by Western civilization for two hundred years and classified as "the mystical and exotic Orient", doing that same exact thing but just trying to find a way to describe it that doesn't use anything off a list of dirty words isn't solving the problem.
 

Count_Zero

Adventurer
Has anybody complained about the children cartoons Xiaolin Showdown, Yin Yang Yo or Samurai Jack?
Xaolin Showdown was created by a first-generation Chinese immigrant, Christy Hui. Also, it only lasted a single season from what I can tell attempts to do follow-up series have failed. That could be due to complaints about cultural insensitivity with some of the episodes that Hui had less involvement with, or it could be other issues - I can't find clear information at this time

Yin Yang Yo was solidly critically panned and pretty much buried to enough of a degree that I never heard of it until your post.

Samurai Jack's setting is more post-apocalyptic than Japanese in the specific or Asian in general - in part because the fundamental premise is that Jack was whisked from feudal Japan into the distant post-apocalyptic future, and the "Jack" in his name is a something he is dubbed by the people of the time, not his actual historical name. There are references to works of Anime & Manga to be sure (including a Lone Wolf and Cub riff), but they are not pervasive, and certainly not at the level of the original OA sourcebook, or what you've put forward as a setting.

In short, Samurai Jack is closer to Gamma World than to Oriental Adventures.
 

ZeshinX

Adventurer
Through all the various discussions related to this, I wonder where the measure of personal responsibility in interpreting the work lies.

I recognize removing elements of language that perpetuates or draws upon historically "-ist" and "-ism" based speech and thought is a good thing. I recognize ensuring an open vision of various aspects of the game to foster a more welcoming environment is absolutely a move in the right direction.

Specific to OA, I haven't, for the life of me, found any written words to remotely suggest "This is meant to be a representation of Culture X." I've seen plenty of words to the effect of 'these various things have their inspiration in/from and draw upon many ideas from Culture X'.

I wonder where imagination or a work of fiction is allowed to supplant the sentiment of "We don't want anyone to feel bad/marginalized about or by this." Where or when does the recognition of a work of fiction become required of the consumer of said work? Does a measure of responsibility not lie upon the consumer to recognize that not all works of fiction (or even non-fiction) will align with their own sense of what is acceptable? I certainly see a sense of responsibility in condemning quite a bit of the language and presentation, which is excellent. That's some damn fine engagement by the consumer. I see little in the way of personal responsibility of managing one's level of offence taken though. By all means, feel what you feel and how you feel it, speak your mind, share it if you so choose...but I see little acknowledgement that one is not owed protection from how they may feel. It is not the responsibility of any other to manage how an individual (or group) feels about anything. Respect their feelings, most definitely...acknowledge those feelings, certainly...act if you feel there is need (or your help is being asked for)...but dealing with those feelings is, ultimately, a matter for that individual and no one else.

I'm still sifting through all my thoughts on this debate, and I fully agree certain changes need to be made, but I am also concerned about what will be lost in this. Not the loss of "-ists" and "-isms" as they currently appear in the written works, those need to go and will not be missed. I'm concerned that imagination will be severely curtailed by the fear of offence. That inspiration will be generally frowned upon. That both imagination and inspiration must adhere to a generally accepted ideological channel and that straying will be met with the fiercest rebuke in the court of public opinion.

I don't know that limiting these things is the best course. I'm not even certain that is what's happening to be honest, but it sure seems like it. I just can't help but wonder, "When did we surrender our responsibility for our feelings to others?"
 

Count_Zero

Adventurer
I'm still sifting through all my thoughts on this debate, and I fully agree certain changes need to be made, but I am also concerned about what will be lost in this. Not the loss of "-ists" and "-isms" as they currently appear in the written works, those need to go and will not be missed. I'm concerned that imagination will be severely curtailed by the fear of offence. That inspiration will be generally frowned upon. That both imagination and inspiration must adhere to a generally accepted ideological channel and that straying will be met with the fiercest rebuke in the court of public opinion.
As I mentioned earlier when I did my multi-book "Asian Adventures" pitch - bringing more people of different cultural backgrounds onboard in positions of leadership and authority for the writing of setting material that takes inspiration from their cultural background can only be a net positive, because their knowledge and background will allow the book to avoid pitfalls that an author from outside that culture will miss, and just as importantly, will be able to guide the book to incorporate material that an author from outside that culture wouldn't know that it existed. That is a net gain.
 

ZeshinX

Adventurer
As I mentioned earlier when I did my multi-book "Asian Adventures" pitch - bringing more people of different cultural backgrounds onboard in positions of leadership and authority for the writing of setting material that takes inspiration from their cultural background can only be a net positive, because their knowledge and background will allow the book to avoid pitfalls that an author from outside that culture will miss, and just as importantly, will be able to guide the book to incorporate material that an author from outside that culture wouldn't know that it existed. That is a net gain.
I understand the intent there, definitely, and see quite a lot of good can and will come from it. It's where that could go...not will go, just could go. I'm just not at the point of seeing the net positive, as you describe (short term positive definitely...long term, not so much). I think only time can ultimately tell of course, so we'll see...but there's a lot of parallels to the past that I'm just not able to ignore and the feeling it leaves me with is one of significant unease.

However, that unease is my thing to deal with and not someone else. :)
 

FaerieGodfather

Aberrant Druid
Similarly, they also did the Dragon Fist RPG around the time of the transition between AD&D 2nd edition and D&D 3rd edition. If they still have the rights to that setting, I think bringing some Chinese American writers in and reworking the setting for 5th edition would be a good idea.
They don't have the rights anymore-- they sold the rights to Green Ronin shortly after Chris Pramas (the original author) founded the company. Green Ronin has always wanted to do a proper d20 version dating all the way back to 2003, but for some reason or another it's always been delayed. I'm really hoping they finally get around to it, but I'm really hoping it's not based on 5e.

It's not really an impediment to WotC either creating a new setting or basing a new wuxia game on any of their pre-existing Chinese-influenced properties.

There should be little to no effort aimed at putting D&D the tabletop RPG in Asia, it's not where the market is or could be worked with. The best thing they could try is a novel or two, or one of the video games which was a lot of resources for localization.
I think that's nonsense. The localization of BECMI in Japan was one of the most successul (and unique) localizations in the history of the industry-- and I really don't think there's any financial reason or cultural that success couldn't be duplicated with modern D&D. Count Zero's (excellent) breakdown of why nobody should do business with China aside, the Japanese and South Korean markets are practically perfect for the RPG industry, and Asia's a whole lot bigger than the countries imitated in Oriental Adventures.

I know a lot of Filipino gamers, for instance.

It's like trying to get D&D to the (Sub-Saharan) African market (not counting South Africa which probably has a mostly Afrikaner player base) while ignoring Black D&D players in North America, who actually are more likely to play tabletop D&D then those on the continent.
If a country can support a thriving Heavy Metal scene, they can support a D&D fandom. WotC would be fools to ignore either potential market.
 

I don't know that limiting these things is the best course. I'm not even certain that is what's happening to be honest, but it sure seems like it. I just can't help but wonder, "When did we surrender our responsibility for our feelings to others?"
A lot of great thoughts in your post, a lot of them that I agree with, but this question inspired me to pull it out and expand on it.

I actually don't remember what the series was called, but I was substituting in a classroom and they had three small children's books on bullying. It was the same story, written from the perspective of the Bully, the Victim, and a bystander.

Each part showed their experience, their problems, and offered an acronym solution for reaching an understanding.


I bring this up, because your question and other assertions like it keep trying to make this an either/or problem. To illustrate with a bullying example, if someone walks into a room points at a table and says "Hey, fat ugly slob, what slop are you eating?" what is going on?

Your question about the "responsibility for our feelings" indicates that the entire weight of the issue, whether or not it is harmful or wrong, is on the victim. They must choose how they feel and accept this and what they do about it. And, to a degree, you are right. They have to figure out how they will react and deal with that.

But the bully has some responsibility too right? After all, they are the instigator. If they weren't instigating, then the situation wouldn't happen.

But, even beyond that, the bystanders have a responsibility here as well. Do they laugh and side with the bully? Do they stay silent, heads down, and hope they don't get noticed? Do they stand with the victim?

I grant, this is real life, and a much more nuanced and complicated issue. If everything were as simple as cafeteria insults the world would be a much better and easier place. But, to be clear, we are in general the bystanders. And we need to choose our actions and how we will go forward.

Telling the victim to not let the bully define them is one approach. But telling them to choose not to be affected is a lot harder. And saying that this wouldn't even be an issue if they weren't so sensitive.... is just bullying again.

So, yes, everyone has their own responsibility in this situation. Including us.
 

Tonguez

Legend
Xaolin Showdown was created by a first-generation Chinese immigrant, Christy Hui. Also, it only lasted a single season from what I can tell attempts to do follow-up series have failed. That could be due to complaints about cultural insensitivity with some of the episodes that Hui had less involvement with, or it could be other issues - I can't find clear information at this time
Xaolin Showdown got 3 seasons but then WB Animation made budget cuts to everything and Showdown was shuffled out. It also got a PlayStation game

Christy Hu then shifted production to Canada with a change to Xaolin Chronicles which wasn’t as good and had to change voice actors, animation style and story details because WB stIll own the rights
 
Last edited:

ZeshinX

Adventurer
A lot of great thoughts in your post, a lot of them that I agree with, but this question inspired me to pull it out and expand on it.

I actually don't remember what the series was called, but I was substituting in a classroom and they had three small children's books on bullying. It was the same story, written from the perspective of the Bully, the Victim, and a bystander.

Each part showed their experience, their problems, and offered an acronym solution for reaching an understanding.


I bring this up, because your question and other assertions like it keep trying to make this an either/or problem. To illustrate with a bullying example, if someone walks into a room points at a table and says "Hey, fat ugly slob, what slop are you eating?" what is going on?

Your question about the "responsibility for our feelings" indicates that the entire weight of the issue, whether or not it is harmful or wrong, is on the victim. They must choose how they feel and accept this and what they do about it. And, to a degree, you are right. They have to figure out how they will react and deal with that.

But the bully has some responsibility too right? After all, they are the instigator. If they weren't instigating, then the situation wouldn't happen.

But, even beyond that, the bystanders have a responsibility here as well. Do they laugh and side with the bully? Do they stay silent, heads down, and hope they don't get noticed? Do they stand with the victim?

I grant, this is real life, and a much more nuanced and complicated issue. If everything were as simple as cafeteria insults the world would be a much better and easier place. But, to be clear, we are in general the bystanders. And we need to choose our actions and how we will go forward.

Telling the victim to not let the bully define them is one approach. But telling them to choose not to be affected is a lot harder. And saying that this wouldn't even be an issue if they weren't so sensitive.... is just bullying again.

So, yes, everyone has their own responsibility in this situation. Including us.
It's in this general state where my mind currently resides. Trying to look at things from as many perspectives as my mind allows me to, be they self-generated, the perspectives of those here and from other places. There's obviously a great deal of speculation that occurs as well, based on various perspectives (which no doubt lose something in translation from here to my mind and heart...even the self-generated ones in a weird way)...the speculation leads to various endpoints of varying degrees, be they extreme left, right and the vast in-between.

I do very much try to avoid situations of "This vs. That" in discussions of this sort, as I find they tend to lose the element of nuance and complexity...but at times it's a useful exercise, as it can (not always) help introduce oft-needed clarity when the nuance/complexity becomes enormously difficult to sort through. It's a laborious process to be sure, but generally a rewarding one in the end. There are risks as well, as the intent or goal can often get lost in the mix.

I've found (rightly, wrongly, in a box by the door) intent is often an element that is regularly dismissed as ultimately irrelevant. I find it difficult to dismiss it so easily, as I think it very much does matter, as it can, in many ways, play an enormous part in the understanding of a situation. I don't argue that intent can do anything to change the immediate emotional context of a consequence to an individual or group...but it does have a major role to play in understanding how we got here, and where we go from here. Dismissing it in the moment feels like a wonderful idea, but the larger picture demands its presence, and losing it will, I suspect, lead to what amounts to an impassable lack of understanding.

I would very much like to see more OA content in the future. It's own tome, various drips and drops in future products, what have you. My desire is to see such content continue, vetted to avoid "-ists" and "-isms" yes, but not lacking in imaginative scope or overly weighted with concerns over upsetting any culture, as the intent is not to represent said cultures, merely to let the imagination fly freely and to be inspired by it.

Great discussions all around though, and I am glad to be a part of them. :)
 

Stereotypes in fictional worlds aren't a crime. Who worries about dwarfs as little Germans and elves like thin Frenchs?

I have said some times the future of the TTRPG franchises could be linked with the videogame industry. Some future videogames not only will allow to create, and share, your own adventure/missions/quests, but also (interactive) comics and machinima movies. And who would use them? Streamers to earn money in youtube. And manga also will be changed. For example a mangaka only will draw some sketch, and the classic comic-book inking will be replaced with special software what transformr those sketches into CGI, or even hyperealist pictures. Some streamers will be groups of TTRPG players using software videogames as virtual tabletops, and we wouldn't see the faces of the players, but listening their voices, and looking the slips movines when these speak. Don't you think D&D would sell more with regional version of game-live shows? for example young people who aim for become seiyū (voice actors)

I guess we agree about to be respectful, and Hasbro/WotC is the first one who wants a good relation with the different Asian markets, to earn money with possible new franchises. I am not talking about Western creating wuxia for Asian market, but I ask about how to give the right tools for the Asian authors could create Wuxia D&D for the Western fandom. How could we help xuanhuan authors to create D&D adventures for Asian and Wester fandom?


Hasbro could work with Asian companies for co-productions, but you can bet it will want total controll over its those just created IPs. At least should allow those PC races, monster and classes to be open licence to be added into the SRD.

* If the ikesai (different world) genre is popular there is a possible way to allow this in D&D. Two worlds are linked. One would be more fantasy gaslight, XIX century, and people from here sometimes are sent, or reincarnated, into a different world, more like the feudal age, without neither firearms and modern tech. (Now I am following the manwah Lady Baby. Do you advice me another?). Ravenloft may be ikesai in its own way when the PCs are abducted from other worlds to suffer their weekend in the hell.


* Now I am thinking about a new PC race based in the mecha-musume (mecanic girl), an inanimated magic object, (usually a weapon) who become setients and then can change the shape into a cute girl.

Moe Anthropomorphism - TV Tropes
 

Kaodi

Adventurer
Off the top of my head I cannot think of any two syllable words starting with "D" that would neatly evoke an Asian setting. If you could fine one creating a variant on the name Dungeons & Dragons could be the way to go. Obviously Asia has their own dragons - dungeon could be replaced.

I suppose you could just call a book by the setting name but that seems restrictive in a way. D&D still uses an implied rather than explicit setting, does it not? I play Pathfinder these days and they are in a slightly different boat with Lost Omens.
 

I think WotC should continue selling the original OA, but mention in the blurb that the continued publication for OA is primarily for historicity . WotC should then point out and link to renditions similar worlds and adventures written with more cultural awareness.
 

Off the top of my head I cannot think of any two syllable words starting with "D" that would neatly evoke an Asian setting. If you could fine one creating a variant on the name Dungeons & Dragons could be the way to go. Obviously Asia has their own dragons - dungeon could be replaced.

I suppose you could just call a book by the setting name but that seems restrictive in a way. D&D still uses an implied rather than explicit setting, does it not? I play Pathfinder these days and they are in a slightly different boat with Lost Omens.
Don't say that. They might publish Koreans and Katanas.
 


COMING SOON: 5 Plug-In Settlements for your 5E Game

Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top