D&D 5E How should be the future Oriental Adventures.

[Kaodi]

Ummm, that seems like a bit of a stretch of a name given what I was saying.

The two I was thinking of, both of which seemed a bit inadequate, were Dao & Dragons (more in the sense of the variant spelling of Tao rather than the sword, but one syllable too short) and Silk & Sword (taken, of course, from the Silk Road).

 

[Nytmare]

Stereotypes in fictional worlds aren't a crime. Who worries about dwarfs as little Germans and elves like thin Frenchs?

Correct. However real life stereotypes in fictional worlds, especially of marginalized people, are exceedingly problematic. Just because there is no intent to harm or insult someone, does not mean you won't accidentally, but honestly, harm or insult them. Especially if you are perpetuating harm that society at large has been ignoring for generations. I'm not fluent in Spanish law, but I assume that just because you didn't mean to commit a crime, doesn't mean can't still commit one by mistake.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I've found (rightly, wrongly, in a box by the door) intent is often an element that is regularly dismissed as ultimately irrelevant. I find it difficult to dismiss it so easily, as I think it very much does matter, as it can, in many ways, play an enormous part in the understanding of a situation. I don't argue that intent can do anything to change the immediate emotional context of a consequence to an individual or group...but it does have a major role to play in understanding how we got here, and where we go from here. Dismissing it in the moment feels like a wonderful idea, but the larger picture demands its presence, and losing it will, I suspect, lead to what amounts to an impassable lack of understanding.

I find myself agreeing with most of your points, which are all very well laid out.

And, I would also like to see a future "mythical X" setting, because being from a culture so removed from my own makes them fascinating to read and consider.

And I agree that intent matters greatly. However, intent only absolves you of previous actions.

If someone turns around and walks forward. bumping into me and spilling my drink, and they say they are sorry that wasn't their intent, then I can easily forgive them. Accidents happen, the place is crowded, and they didn't see me there.

But, what happens next is important. Because if the person then continues walking, shoving me out of the way, they cannot claim a lack of intent. At that point, their intent is clear in their actions.

So, I don't believe that OA 1st edition was intended to be problematic. But, if they release Kara-Tur today, and it contains the same elements and problems... can we justify it by saying they don't "intend" offense when it was already highlighted?

 

[ZeshinX]

So, I don't believe that OA 1st edition was intended to be problematic. But, if they release Kara-Tur today, and it contains the same elements and problems... can we justify it by saying they don't "intend" offense when it was already highlighted?

In the hypothetical that WotC, at some point, releases a Kara-Tur product...that has received contributions and vetting from various cultural consultants from all cultures that inspired the works of Kara-Tur...it will, with a high degree of likelihood, still manage to offend. In which possible cultures and individuals that offence occurs is somewhat predictable in a general sense, but any work will inevitably "not sit well" with some in one form or another.

Therein lies a rather noteworthy conundrum. Would it simply be better to not even go there? Is it worth the risk? Is the goal to minimize the potential for offence, recognizing a product 100% certain not to offend is impossible?

The intent, no doubt, would be not to upset or offend a soul, especially so among those from cultures (or descended from cultures) that inspired the work....so if some are still upset and/or offended....is the intent suddenly meaningless? Is the message, at that point, to not even try anymore?

That really is one of the biggest concerns I possess as regards the debate. Will the risk of offending, no matter how strong the attempts are to avoid it, ultimately lead to stunting the imaginative and creative among us from even trying.

The debate continues, as it should...I just hope we don't lose something along the way.

 

[Chaosmancer]

In the hypothetical that WotC, at some point, releases a Kara-Tur product...that has received contributions and vetting from various cultural consultants from all cultures that inspired the works of Kara-Tur...it will, with a high degree of likelihood, still manage to offend. In which possible cultures and individuals that offence occurs is somewhat predictable in a general sense, but any work will inevitably "not sit well" with some in one form or another.

Therein lies a rather noteworthy conundrum. Would it simply be better to not even go there? Is it worth the risk? Is the goal to minimize the potential for offence, recognizing a product 100% certain not to offend is impossible?

The intent, no doubt, would be not to upset or offend a soul, especially so among those from cultures (or descended from cultures) that inspired the work....so if some are still upset and/or offended....is the intent suddenly meaningless? Is the message, at that point, to not even try anymore?

That really is one of the biggest concerns I possess as regards the debate. Will the risk of offending, no matter how strong the attempts are to avoid it, ultimately lead to stunting the imaginative and creative among us from even trying.

The debate continues, as it should...I just hope we don't lose something along the way.

Honestly, if they tried, and we could point to the fact that they put in a good faith effort, then those who were still offended, we'd have a much better argument to mollify them.

This stuff is hard, and it will never be 100% unoffensive. That is a pipe dream for a humanity yet to come. But, if this fear of never doing good enough leads to people not trying, that is just as bad as fear of censorship meaning no one creates anything. Probably worse.

Edit: Mollify is a bad word. I'm not sure what term I want. But, I would be on the other side of the line, in that case. I would be arguing that WoTC did everything it could, and that some mistakes are inevitable. And if they don't like it, then they need to figure themselves out.

 

[Nytmare]

It is times like this where I am reminded that there are plenty of really spectacularly themed settings out there managed to create worlds that are apparently not directly derivative of any specific cultural influence.

 

[77IM]

I want Wizards to commission a whole new game made by Chinese game designers in China, designed for the massive Chinese market and based on Chinese folklore and legends (and those from other Asian cultures -- mythology tends to get around), and written in Chinese and illustrated by Chinese artists.

But, make sure it's totally compatible with 5E, and then translate it back to English and sell it here, too.

 

[Derren]

I want Wizards to commission a whole new game made by Chinese game designers in China, designed for the massive Chinese market and based on Chinese folklore and legends (and those from other Asian cultures -- mythology tends to get around), and written in Chinese and illustrated by Chinese artists.

But, make sure it's totally compatible with 5E, and then translate it back to English and sell it here, too.

And that game would probably be as accurate and respectful of Chinese culture as Oriental Adventures is, simply because WotC is not in the business of making accurate historic games.

 

[77IM]

And that game would probably be as accurate and respectful of Chinese culture as Oriental Adventures is, simply because WotC is not in the business of making accurate historic games.

You're suggesting that a group of Chinese game designers, in China, with the goal of creating the leading Chinese RPG, are going to do it by disrespecting Chinese culture???

 

[DammitVictor]

You're suggesting that a group of Chinese game designers, in China, with the goal of creating the leading Chinese RPG, are going to do it by disrespecting Chinese culture???

Yuuuuuuup. And that's actually what I want, but a lot of other people aren't going to see it that way.