How should the Psion/Mystic be implemented in 1DnD?

[Kobold Avenger]

Now that WotC seems insistant on only three standardised spell lists/power sources, they have ensured that psionics can't be introduced as a caster.

Sort of a reason why I've been pushing for Bards to get a Psionic/Occult spell list, so it will be easier for there being Psionics.

 

[TwoSix]

If some of you really want to play with psionics that badly, some of you should find different DMs to play for. Ones that aren't scrooges like that.

Or you just wait and wait and wait for WotC and then dislike what they ultimately give you. Whichever way works.

Honestly, I'm kind of over the debates about what concepts are missing or what little details get changed in the newest packet. If you have a concept, just make up the rules yourself! Just be flexible, work with your DM and come up with something.

 

[Osgood]

I haven't given this a ton of thought, but what if they designed the psionic class (whatever it's called) to be a full blown 4e structured class, with a couple of at-will powers, one (at first) power that recovers on a short rest, and one on a long rest. I always saw the warlock as a sort of bridge between the Vancien spellcasting structure and the 4e style, but through the strangeness of psionics maybe this could be a way to just fully embrace that 4e style. Structuring them as powers could allow whatever custom tewwks they want to differentiate the powers from existing spells, and--if desired--allow them to function differently from magic.

Ad for a setting to integrate psionics in now that WotC won't return to Dark Sun, they were always pretty well-integrated into Eberron, and I think there will be enough changes with the 2024 revisions to warrant a revisit to what (IMO) was the best setting book of 5E (and for crying out loud, maybe an adventure!).

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Sort of a reason why I've been pushing for Bards to get a Psionic/Occult spell list, so it will be easier for there being Psionics.

I made reddit posts suggesting a 4th occult/psionic power source and everyone hated it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ok do I thought I might do a new one of these threads every few days, in order to see how people want certain class/subclass concepts handled in the new system. I'm focusing on the most suggested and talked about classes first, and maybe I'll move onto some more obscure ones later.

So first, lets start with the psion/mystic. This one is notable for getting its own class unearthed arcana in 5e, but never making it through to release. With the, aberrant mind, psi-warrior, and soulknife taking up aspects of the concept in the form of subclasses instead.

So in 1DnD, how should this character concept, and by extension the entire concept of psionics at all be handled? Should it be identical to 5e with the three subclasses, or maybe different subclasses? Should it get its own class, and if so how should that class be handled? Should the psi-die mechanic return? Or should it be a spellcaster? If so spell slots or will points, and how will it work with only the arcane, primal, or divine lists to pick from?

Or would you rather the concept of psionics and every class/subclass linked to it wasn't a thing in DnD at all?

Other Threads:

Artificer - How should the Artificer be implemented in 1DnD?

I think that the elemental stuff should be stolen and given to the elemental monk, to start with.

Then put the Nomad’s goodies in a Rogue or Monk subclass. Those the main two classes I think of when I ask “who should get to teleport a lot?”

What is left after all the stuff that’s been put elsewhere is mostly what the class should be anyway, which is a “mind mage”.

Telekinesis, telepathy, object construct manifestation, bolstering allies and putting the hurt on enemies like a control oriented wizard.

It should play very similarly to a Jedi Consular, with 3 branches (move stuff, affect yourself, affect others) and then subclasses based on either archetypes or like…a type of strategy or role, like a vanguard, a face, a manipulator, a telekinetic AoE specialist, etc.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I dont know why, but I always felt the Psionic system could be based on the Skill system, with varying degrees of success against a set DC affecting the results.

History: Locate Object, Time Shift
Athletics: jedi jump, lift with your mind, force grab
Sleight of Hand: remote manipulation
Animal Handling: charm beast, charm monsters
Insight: Read thoughts, Aura sight, psychic query
Perception: Nomad arrow, blind sight
Deception: modify memory, implant thoughts
Acrobatic: move across liquids, celerity

On a failed check you gain a level of Exhaustion (the OD&D one), on a success you create the effect.

In short, psionics could be what you achieve when your skills and wills result in supernatural results.

 

[TwoSix]

I dont know why, but I always felt the Psionic system could be based on the Skill system, with varying degrees of success against a set DC affecting the results.

History: Locate Object, Time Shift
Athletics: jedi jump, lift with your mind, force grab
Sleight of Hand: remote manipulation
Animal Handling: charm beast, charm monsters
Insight: Read thoughts, Aura sight, psychic query
Perception: Nomad arrow, blind sight
Deception: modify memory, implant thoughts
Acrobatic: move across liquids, celerity

On a failed check you gain a level of Exhaustion (the OD&D one), on a success you create the effect.

In short, psionics could be what you achieve when your skills and wills result in supernatural results.

Man, I kind of love this. The whole class could be a bunch of invocation-like abilities that allow you to achieve a "supernatural" result with a good skill check role. Psionics as the ultimate skill-monkey class.

If you want to gate it behind a limited resource, maybe a pool of "psionic inspiration" dice that you can spend to add to the skill check; spending the die is the trigger that allows for the enhanced result.

 

[Yaarel]

The Psion is its own class, using a Warlock-like spellcasting chassis.

Except, it uses spell points, where each spell slot level costs 1 spell point to cast. So, a slot 3 Fireball spell costs 3 spell points to cast. The spell point pool equals 1 + Psion level. This pool refreshes after each short rest.

All psionic spells are innate and never use spell components.

The Psion has at least four solid, distinctive, subclasses.

A choice of Warlock "Invocation"-like options allow the player to customize the mechanical features for the psionic character concept.

The Warlock "Arcanum"-like spell mechanic allows the Psion class to access slot 9 spells, when advancing to the highest tiers.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Man, I kind of love this. The whole class could be a bunch of invocation-like abilities that allow you to achieve a "supernatural" result with a good skill check role. Psionics as the ultimate skill-monkey class.

If you want to gate it behind a limited resource, maybe a pool of "psionic inspiration" dice that you can spend to add to the skill check; spending the die is the trigger that allows for the enhanced result.

its like, you have plenty of classes that can replace a skill check by casting a spell or whatever, but you have no class that makes those roll of 25+ Impossible rolls meaningful. What's beyond the impossible? That's the kind of ''reality bending'' the psion should be about. No magic spell, just sheer will and skill.

You dont need spells, you need the Gift.

 

[Vaalingrade]

On a failed check you gain a level of Exhaustion (the OD&D one), on a success you create the effect.

Well, at least we're going to have one more rampantly overused mechanic that isn't actually as good as everyone touts it in the design space to keep Advantage and Proficiency Bonus company.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Well, at least we're going to have one more rampantly overused mechanic that isn't actually as good as everyone touts it in the design space to keep Advantage and Proficiency Bonus company.

So far we havent seen much use of the new Exhaustion mechanic.

And I way prefer a mechanic use in many instance than a mechanic only used by a small subset of character (like the 2e psion stuff), if I have to choose between one or the other.

 

[Yaarel]

Hotter take:

Wizard, with all the blandness of its subclasses and its lack of actual class features and its monopoly on the INT stat needs to go and make place for a Psion class with its specialty of mind-bending magic and weird space powers.

Give the mastery of magic to the ones supposed to be magic incarnate: Sorcerers. Give book/tome keeping to the bards or clerics who actually gather the old lore of their college or religion.

I second this because I think the Wizard is weighed down by 40+ years of baggage. It just has too much in one class and is a giant pile of mushy tofu as a concept because of it. Strip out the illusion stuff and give it to the bard. Strip out the telekinesis and mental spells and make them psion powers. Make strong concepts like summoner, necromancer, and abjurer wizard subclasses with robust features that other subclass and full classes can't just replicated by accessing the same old common vanilla spell list.

The Wizard class inherits "the" legacy, going back to the origins of D&D. So there is pressure to keep the Wizard able to do anything and everything.

But personally.

I would be satisfied with a Wizard whose spells are only Evocation, Transmutation, and Illusion, with the overall theme of being a "creator". The creator magic wields the five elements, including evocative Fire, Water, and Air, transmutative Earth, and quasi-real illusory constructs made out of Ethereal Force.

With these three subclasses, add the Bladesinger as a gishy fourth subclass.

 

[Yaarel]

I haven't given this a ton of thought, but what if they designed the psionic class (whatever it's called) to be a full blown 4e structured class, with a couple of at-will powers, one (at first) power that recovers on a short rest, and one on a long rest. I always saw the warlock as a sort of bridge between the Vancien spellcasting structure and the 4e style, but through the strangeness of psionics maybe this could be a way to just fully embrace that 4e style. Structuring them as powers could allow whatever custom tewwks they want to differentiate the powers from existing spells, and--if desired--allow them to function differently from magic.

Ad for a setting to integrate psionics in now that WotC won't return to Dark Sun, they were always pretty well-integrated into Eberron, and I think there will be enough changes with the 2024 revisions to warrant a revisit to what (IMO) was the best setting book of 5E (and for crying out loud, maybe an adventure!).

Notice that the 5e Warlock class has:

At-will powers ≈ cantrip, invocation
Encounter powers ≈ short-rest refresh spell slot
Daily powers ≈ long-rest refresh arcanum

For so many reasons, including both balance and flexibility, the Warlock chassis while using equivalent points instead of slots, is excellent for psionic mechanics.

 

[TwoSix]

The Wizard class inherits "the" legacy, going back to the origins of D&D. So there is pressure to keep the Wizard able to do anything and everything.

But personally.

I would be satisfied with a Wizard whose spells are only Evocation, Transmutation, and Illusion, with the overall theme of being a "creator". The creator magic wields the five elements, including evocative Fire, Water, and Air, transmutative Earth, and quasi-real illusory constructs made out of Ethereal Force.

With these three subclasses, add the Bladesinger as a gishy fourth subclass.

Agreed. The number one thematic change I would make for D&D classes is moving wizards from doing "everything" into a limited subset of magical tropes, like the Bard and Druid.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I dont know why, but I always felt the Psionic system could be based on the Skill system, with varying degrees of success against a set DC affecting the results.

History: Locate Object, Time Shift
Athletics: jedi jump, lift with your mind, force grab
Sleight of Hand: remote manipulation
Animal Handling: charm beast, charm monsters
Insight: Read thoughts, Aura sight, psychic query
Perception: Nomad arrow, blind sight
Deception: modify memory, implant thoughts
Acrobatic: move across liquids, celerity

On a failed check you gain a level of Exhaustion (the OD&D one), on a success you create the effect.

In short, psionics could be what you achieve when your skills and wills result in supernatural results.

I was actually thinking that each of the three categories i mentioned upthread could be treated like a skill, and you get proficiency in 2, and expertise in 1.

I’d you’re throwing a guy, the roll determines how much mass they can yeet, and how much damage the object/target takes upon impact (if it impacts a solid object or surface). If you’re hardening your skin, the roll determines how many THP that gives you.
Etc.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Move Object from Star Wars Saga Edition is a great example.

Move Object

See also: Force Powers, Move Object Reality Check You telekinetically move a target up to 6 squares in any direction using The Force. [Telekinetic] Time: Standard Action Targets: One character or object within 12 squares, and within line of sight. Make a Use the Force check. The result of the...

swse.fandom.com

 

[Vael]

Now that WotC seems insistant on only three standardised spell lists/power sources, they have ensured that psionics can't be introduced as a caster.

Just throwing it into the game as an INT based full caster using the arcane spell list will be the biggest joke of an implementation of psionics yet.

I just assume that the lack of a Psionic spell list implies that Psionics isn't spell based. Which, if they went back to the Mystic and tried again, would be correct.

In general, I'd hope to see some interest in non-spell based magic systems. Psionic, Incarnum, Tome of Battle Maneuvers, Pact Magic Vestige Binding from Tome of Magic ... any of these would be an interesting port into 5eRevised.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I just assume that the lack of a Psionic spell list implies that Psionics isn't spell based. Which, if they went back to the Mystic and tried again, would be correct.

I think it's because they haven't thought of it, or they've thought of it but decided "Why bother, if none of the classes in the PHB use it"

 

[Zaukrie]

I mean, the wizard and sorcerer are already the same class pretty much, so I'd want psionics to actually be different. Spell points or something. But I don't want just another spellcaster that has basically a different list of spells. The wizard or sorcerer can do that. To a certain extent the warlock can.

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

Now that WotC seems insistant on only three standardised spell lists/power sources, they have ensured that psionics can't be introduced as a caster.

At the creators conference, Jeremy Crawford seemed to say that they are going to scrap overarching spell lists and go back to spell lists by class. This may have been coming for some time, but they probably killed it after the inital online reaction to the new Paladin spells... which were nice buffs to the Paladin arsenal, but ultimately probably made Cleric's better Smiters than Paladins.

I won't rule them out still keywording Primal/Arcane/Divine spells, but I don't think it is going to be as hardwired into the mechanics going forward. We will see what they come up with. Even under the old method, they could have had added a Psionic spell list later on with a combination of PHB spells and sourcebook spells and have it open to the Psionic class plus any Psionic subclasses that also use those spells. It does seem like a lot of Psionics fans don't like turning those powers into spells though. I am not sure how WOTC handles that. They don't seem to like the current subclass + feat arrangement either.