D&D (2024) How should the Wizard subclasses be revised?


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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Just curious.

How do people see the summoner and necromancer as different?
At the minimum, Necromancer doesn't HAVE to have a small swarm of undead to fight for them, unlike Summoners, for whom the small swarm is what makes them a Summoner.

Needless to say, I'm fine with minimizing the concept of having lots of minions to fight for you. Always been a pain in the rear to deal with if you ask me, LOL.
 

Just curious.

How do people see the summoner and necromancer as different?
There's a couple of different ways to do a summoner, but I see them as the type to see a variety of creatures to do their jobs and manipulating interplanar connections and stuff, though the Pathfinder Summoner with it's dedicated companion also weighs heavily in a type of summoner.

While it's common to throw in zombie and skeleton minions for a Necromancer, I also see a necromancer who prefers spectral or shadowy minions throwing around a lot of necrotic damage and taking to dead spirits as another potential Necromancer type. Though the later would touch on the Shadow Sorcerer or the Shadowcaster of 3.5e.
 


To plug my own game for the umpteenth millionth time (tbf Im currently in the steady grind of writing it so its always on my mind anyway), I have Horde mechanics that form the core of my mass warfare mechanics.

Using them, you can take a statblock for a single goblin and scale it up as high as 10,000, if you want, and you can do it without even needing another statblock. All stats, abilities, etc are easily scaleable and all you need to do is run the math once and have it referenceable. (And I plan on making it so my blocks have the space apportioned to do this)

And the best part is, it still feels like you're actually fighting with entire armies, and indeed, player characters are being designed to where you can take on these Hordes as individuals, or while integrated into your own Horde, and again its all very very smooth.

This lets me do Necromancers that actually feel like proper Overlord style Dark Lords, and as it happens helps Martials (who are already awesome in my system to begin with) feel hella badass, given fighting a Horde by yourself translates your damage into you cutting down foes by the dozens.

This is why my strongest Barbarians can deal up to 6d12 3x in a row on one turn, with just plain low-level weapons. Because once you get there, you're either facing down these Hordes, or swinging into proper endgame monsters that threatent continents.

Interestingly, though, is that while my game will be much higher octane than 5e is, its magic is actually technically going to be more powerful and dramatically less so at the same time. Namely because while combat magic is great and reliable, any other kind of magic isn't.

Even as a 30th level master with maxed skills, you're not guaranteed to always be able to solve a problem, unless the solution is to destroy the problem. You still progress and become very adept at utilizing improvised magic (there are very few utility spells you can explicitly weave yourself; most effects you might want have to be improvised), theres always a chance of it backfiring on you. And to use those few explicit spells that you can weave takes time, effort, and learning achieve. Whereas blowing naughty word up is easy even for toddlers :). (Which if your curious has a lot of deep lore that solidifies why magic is so inherently dangerous, and why the Mystics are a distinctly different kind of "magic" from the conventional)
 

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
Just curious.

How do people see the summoner and necromancer as different?
For me, there is a big difference. The Summoner, by name, summons creatures; whether a single powerful entity (like a Demon or a Devil) or a swarm of small minions (like Imps or Quasits), that is the essence of the class.

The Necromancer can summon (or raise) undead creatures, but there is more to the class than that. In my opinion, anything with an "eerie, creepy" vibe to it (especially spells that deal necrotic damage) is in the Necromancer's wheelhouse. Just a quick filter of my Master Spell List excel file shows me many Necromancy spells that have nothing to do with summoning creatures. The list includes such notable spells as: Chill Touch, Toll the Dead, Inflict Wounds, Ray of Sickness, Ray of Enfeeblement, Bestow Curse, Vampiric Touch, Blight, and Finger of Death (whether or not these spells, functionally, are as good as they should be is another story).

Looking at the School of Necromancy subclass, 2 of the 5 subclass abilities have to do with summoning creatures: Undead Thralls and Command Undead. Incidentally, for someone like me who has no interest in clogging up the battlefield with unwieldy summoned/commanded creatures, the School of Necromancy subclass has zero appeal. If I were interested in making my idea of a Necromancer character (the aforementioned "eerie, creepy" vibe, dealing necrotic damage), I would choose another subclass (maybe the War Caster from Xanathar's, Blood Magic from Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting Reborn, or Generalist from Korranberg Chronicle: Adventurer's Almanac) and simply focus my spell list on Necrotic spells.
 
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Just curious.

How do people see the summoner and necromancer as different?
The big issue is that wizards are just a huge pile of mush because of the shared spell list. The necromancer, the conjurer, and the illusionist all show up to the table with Sleep. The abjurer, the evoker, and the oracle all show up with fireball. There's almost zero differentiation between spellcasters that should have different abilities and feel.

When 5e first came out I tried to play a necromancer. I wound up with the exact same spell list as the other wizard at the table and effectively the same abilities. Super lame. Things like the necromancer and summoner are just obvious examples of how things could be done differently from 5e because we've seen them handled differently in a million other video games, anime, etc. DnD just needs to step up and make things special instead of relying on the generic spell list as a class feature.
 



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