• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

How soon do you see warning signs of a TPK?

Wolf1066 said:
;5204158]If you don't have a Charon miniature, would slipping on a Skull Mask do?
Heh, seems appropriate. A late friend of mine used to use a 'Funeral in Progress' sign. :p :) I have sometimes considered a version of that which can be slipped over the top of a GM screen as an alternative to the Charon figure.

The Auld Grump, death is just the GM's way of telling you to be more careful....
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I've been in many TPKs, and through poor DM preparation and understanding of CR, I unfortunately caused a few.

The party is particularly vulnerable and on the road to a TPK when:

1) Cleric is out of healing.
2) Any one of the fighters is at half hit points or worse.
3) All the sorcerer/wizard offensive spills are gone.

If they meet even an appropriately rated CR monster, if the DM plays the monter's special abilities right then, = TPK.
 

How quickly you see the signs depends at least in part on which side of the DM screen your sitting.

Due to a combination of metagame and incomplete information, the players are usually not going to expect to run up against encounters that they cannot handle. Dm's who do continually throw entirely unwinnable combats at players often end up with a decided shortage of players. DM's who are known to let PC's die have more cautious players, but there is a difference between a hard fight and a deadly fight. So the players usually enter a fight thinking they can handle it.

So to use analogy, for the players anticipating a TPK is about as easy as figuring out if the hot wings are a bit too spicy to handle; You wont know for sure until you take a bite.

For the DM, it is a bit different. If a fight is meant to push the line between hard and too hard, then it is easy to forsee the possibility of a TPK. But a few things can catch the DM off guard.

- Unfamiliar non-damage ability: Dm's very quickly get a feel for how deadly a creature is based on its to hit and damage. But an ability like Daze, Stun, or Immobilize can have a much bigger effect on a fight then the DM realized. Especially if it works out that many of the monsters have that ability.

- Overestimating player resources: An encounter that might be no problem for a party with full healing surges may turn into a problem if the players are low on surges.

- Overestimating player wisdom or luck: Sometimes the players manage to do what Bullgrits players did and 'pull a train', stringing several encounters together. In 4th edition, players can self heal and regain encounter powers between fights. Deny them that, and it wont matter if they have 11 surges. The leader can only use the inspiring word type power twice.

- Hot or Cold Dice: You can look at average numbers for attack and damage per round all you want. Once in a while someone hits a hot or cold streak. A solo with a brutal recharge ability that is suddenly able to use it every round for 6 or so rounds and cannot seem to miss with that attack is going to annihilate everyone.

END COMMUNICATION
 




In 4E I have almost TPKing a party but not quite doing so in heroic tier in important fights down to a science now. So many satisfying encounters where every member of the party is completely out of healing surges (or almost) and healing powers, on single digit HP and has defeated the monsters by the narrowest of margins.

Sadly until recently I've never been able to replicate this feeling in paragon/epic for various reasons. Until the changes to the monsters damage and general powers with MM3. I've noticed that I can almost get this in even an epic tier game, I just need to figure out the right combination of powers, terrain and encounter design (as I have to tone things down now because what I was doing previously would TPK a party).

My one TPK in 4E so far was a terribly designed encounter on my part, that exploited soldier monsters of a higher level than the party and had corruption corpses (-5 penalty to attack aura). Let's just say it was diabolically evil and utterly unwinnable. I did in fact come up with a last moment "Oh crap, um, actually the evil priest chose to sacrifice you instead" thing. The PCs seemed to buy it and fun was had with an evil mural that animated and tried to tentacle them all to death instead.

I just felt bad about that because it was truly awful encounter design on my part.
 
Last edited:

No, mister protagonist. I expect you to _die_.

Call of Cthulhu: short version - too much DnD.
While I really like the DnD, when transitioning a groups of players into grim systems like Cthulhu - make sure they understand that this influences greatly Rules of Engagement. And while some firepower might prove useful, it is purely in no-way-to-run scenarios. You do not challenge one, surely not two, and definitely not a mob of goddamn (literally) rotting corpses.

The GM described a situation, and everyone was ready to run/hide. When one of our companions decided to shoot at an Abomination, I already knew that this session will end in a couple of minutes. In a way, it ended even before his dice hit the table.

For other Cthulhu sessions it was easier - the story would become clearer, last pieces would fall in place, the tension would be at it's peak. Lifetime in asylum is the closest thing players in Cthulhu get to "and they lived happily ever after".

In DnD, I thought "yup... that's a TPK for ya!" numerous times, especially with one DM, Czarny. Our cleric and sorcerer would fall. We would be hit with a fireball that was meant to be countered, but I didn't think of it in time. We would engage Red Dragon only to discover that we cannot overcome his spell resistance, burning out of disintegrations and Words of Power. And we would win. Somehow, with a strain of luck, and no (perceivable by us, at least) Deus Ex Machinas (and DM rolling out in open), sometimes new ideas - we prevailed. The cost was sometimes heavy - attributes decaying, our paladin fallen - but after a session of Doom, this seemed like a reasonable price.
To this day, I do not know how, and even if our DM was helping us to avert this. It walked like a TPK, it quacked like a TPK, it was holding a sign saying TPK. And it was always a goose.

In MERP(so, basically Rolemaster), it all came down to knowing our beloved DM. He would laugh and giggle in a very specific way after we decided to go with some idea. We would still go with it, most of the time, as we always tried our best to avert the "Wait! I think I failed a spot check!" trope, and we would hope we were just paranoid. But we knew.
Another way to know that we're heading for a TPK was more of a cold calculation and experience. We would gain 6th level. Ah, the dreaded 6th level. It was more to do with probability than Dm's ill-will. If you gain 6th level is this system, it means that for weeks it took to accomplish this, you did not get a critical followed by by high crit roll, or maybe did, but was saved by -20 crit penalty attached to weaker spells and weapons. And among other things, now you'd would face magic more often, as well as monsters without criticals limit. Let me tell you something about magic in MERP - you would not like it. Criticals from 90+ killed you immediately, those between 50 to 89 merely enlenghtened your torment. Did I mention that criticals went up to 120? They did.

Of course by this time, our dwarves were bold and beardless from previous encounters, our elves were crippled and wizards had been at level 2. Again. (Wizards, powerful as they are when on high levels, have both usefulness and life expectancy of a fly when it comes to low levels. Like, lower than 7th), so we welcomed the possibility to make new characters with some level of relief.
That meant a reset for our party interaction as well though, which was even better. For our MERP parties, the villains were distractions that actually helped to keep us alive, as each of us would have his Big Bad at an arm length at all times.
 

I rarely see them coming before it's almost too late. They generally appear oncoming when the party is split or uses poor tactics but I've found they most often actually happen in a challenging encounter and the dice go hot for the monsters or cold for the party.
 


Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top