MNblockhead
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I need some simple rules/mechanics for time spent counting coins and valuating treasure items.
In the past I generally hand-waved this but in this campaign time and coin are important resources that have to be tracked. With that in mind, and in the interest of geeking out and thinking too much about trivial things, here are my questions and preliminary conclusions.
1. How fast can someone count coins and are there any skills that could improve that speed?
Besides being adept at making rough estimates (see next section), adventures would likely have a lot of experience counting out coin. They would know that you can almost as accurately determine the number of coins using weight as by manually counting one by one. They may even know how to predict total values from samples. They would likely be able to count coins much more quickly than the average person.
I am not finding a lot of information on line. In this video discussing money counters at a Chinese bus company, the counter take 1 minute and 40 seconds to count out and bundle 100 bank notes with an error rate below 0.005%. Counting coins, when error rates can be higher and when they don't need to be neatly organized, should go much quicker. There are many videos on Chinese money counters (this lady is amazing) but they are all using bills.
So, if you have 10,000 coins - how long does it take to determine that?
My preliminary ruling is - nobody counts to the coin in the dungeon and it still doesn't matter. Adventurer's are good at quickly estimating the number of coins (see number 2, below), which they are can verify with some sampling/weighing during short and long rests (see number 3, below).
2. How would you handle "rough guesses"?
I'm thinking a straight-up INT check. I don't want to make a complicated table to determine DC, I'll just come up with a DC on the fly based on the number of coins, whether they are in a container or scattered, and whether they are a single type of coin or multiple types mixed together.
I'm also thinking of making a "rain man" feat, that allows the character to instantly know (one action) the number of items it can see, but I'm not sure it is useful enough to matter given how coin counting plays out in the game.
But, why bother? Generally, if you say there are thousands of copper pieces, the exact number is not going to matter when the players make a decision whether or not gather it all or leave it because it isn't worth the encumbrance.
3. Would you allow coin counting and item valuation during a short or long rest?
I would say yes. I like the idea of combining the two. The party finds a safe place to rest, heal, eat, and count/valuate their treasure. Because of this, worrying about time to count is even less important. Just assume that they will make time to get exact counts and give the players the numbers up front.
CONCLUSION FOR COIN COUNTING BASED ON 1-3
So here is how I handle it in game. I assume characters are good at estimating coin amounts and that they verify during rests. So I just give the numbers up front and will not bother with rolls or tracking time for coin counting.
What is REALLY important is the time needed to GATHER all the coins you want to take. For this I go with rough estimates. If coins can just be dumped from a chest into a bag of holding, that will just be an action. If they are scattered over the floor, maybe it takes 10 minutes. If the coins are strewn through rubble, plant growth, or the party is picking out the gold and platinum and leaving the copper from a large mixed pile of coins, then maybe that's an hour or more.
And that's about it.
4. How do you handle item valuation in your game?
Xanathar's gives hints at how the handle this. Proficiency with Jeweler's Tools gives your the ability to "Identify Gems. You can identify gems and determine their value at a glance."
From this I read that a highly-skilled character can valuate certain items with one action. If you have skill in an appropriate tool, you might not need to make a roll. If you don't have an appropriate tool proficiency, you have to roll, usually using INT (Investigation) but History, Religion, and Nature could all be helpful, depending on what is being valuated.
I don't see any specific feats that help, other than skilled and prodigy, which are helpful in that they allow you to take more skills.
I'm also surprised that there are not any backgrounds that really help, other than by giving your skills or tool proficiencies that could be helpful. I'm thinking of creating two new backgrounds: fence (variant) and auctioneer. These backgrounds would have advantage on all skill checks make to valuate items.
Based on this, my initial thoughts on how to resolve valuations of various categories of items are given below.
Jewels, Gems, and Precious Metals
If you have proficiency in jeweler's tools, you successfully evaluate any jewel, gemstone, precious metal with one action, no skill check required. If the item is particularly exotic a roll may be required. Note: this doesn't detect fakes. An investigation check using your jeweler's tools proficiency is still required to determine if an item is genuine or not. How long that will take and whether access to a lab or special materials is required is up to the DM, but I would generally rule that only a few minutes are needed.
Smith Tools can act as jeweler's tools for common precious metals.
Without an appropriate tool proficiency, a roll is required. INT (Investigation) is the default, but INT(History) or INT(Religion) could also be used depending on the nature of the item being valuated.
Art Work
A tool proficiency only helps for types of artwork that involved such tools.
Without an appropriate tool proficiency, a roll is required. INT (Investigation) is the default, but INT(History) or INT(Religion) could also be used depending on the nature of the item being valuated.
A DM may require more time and research to valuate some items, even with an appropriate tool proficiency.
Furs, Hides, Skins
If you have proficiency in leather-working tools, you successfully identify and valuate any hide, fur, pelt, skin or similar item, no skill check required. If the item is particularly exotic a roll may be required. Again, a DM may determine an item is so rare that further time and perhaps access to special equipment, material, or references is required.
Weaver's Tools can act like leather working tools for wool and hairs used as fibers for making cloth.
Without an appropriate tool proficiency, a roll is required. INT (Investigation) is the default, but INT(Nature) could also be used.
Other
The above are for where valuating tends to be more common and important, but the same general rules can be used for any item, applying the appropriate proficiencies. Smith Tools can allow you to automatically evaluate metal armor and weapons. Weaver's Tools can do the same for clothing. Leatherworking Tools for leather armor, saddles, etc. Cobbler's tools for footwear. And so forth.
Anyway, what are your thoughts? For those of you who do anything other than just telling the players the value of items, how to you handle valuations?
In the past I generally hand-waved this but in this campaign time and coin are important resources that have to be tracked. With that in mind, and in the interest of geeking out and thinking too much about trivial things, here are my questions and preliminary conclusions.
1. How fast can someone count coins and are there any skills that could improve that speed?
Besides being adept at making rough estimates (see next section), adventures would likely have a lot of experience counting out coin. They would know that you can almost as accurately determine the number of coins using weight as by manually counting one by one. They may even know how to predict total values from samples. They would likely be able to count coins much more quickly than the average person.
I am not finding a lot of information on line. In this video discussing money counters at a Chinese bus company, the counter take 1 minute and 40 seconds to count out and bundle 100 bank notes with an error rate below 0.005%. Counting coins, when error rates can be higher and when they don't need to be neatly organized, should go much quicker. There are many videos on Chinese money counters (this lady is amazing) but they are all using bills.
So, if you have 10,000 coins - how long does it take to determine that?
My preliminary ruling is - nobody counts to the coin in the dungeon and it still doesn't matter. Adventurer's are good at quickly estimating the number of coins (see number 2, below), which they are can verify with some sampling/weighing during short and long rests (see number 3, below).
2. How would you handle "rough guesses"?
I'm thinking a straight-up INT check. I don't want to make a complicated table to determine DC, I'll just come up with a DC on the fly based on the number of coins, whether they are in a container or scattered, and whether they are a single type of coin or multiple types mixed together.
I'm also thinking of making a "rain man" feat, that allows the character to instantly know (one action) the number of items it can see, but I'm not sure it is useful enough to matter given how coin counting plays out in the game.
But, why bother? Generally, if you say there are thousands of copper pieces, the exact number is not going to matter when the players make a decision whether or not gather it all or leave it because it isn't worth the encumbrance.
3. Would you allow coin counting and item valuation during a short or long rest?
I would say yes. I like the idea of combining the two. The party finds a safe place to rest, heal, eat, and count/valuate their treasure. Because of this, worrying about time to count is even less important. Just assume that they will make time to get exact counts and give the players the numbers up front.
CONCLUSION FOR COIN COUNTING BASED ON 1-3
So here is how I handle it in game. I assume characters are good at estimating coin amounts and that they verify during rests. So I just give the numbers up front and will not bother with rolls or tracking time for coin counting.
What is REALLY important is the time needed to GATHER all the coins you want to take. For this I go with rough estimates. If coins can just be dumped from a chest into a bag of holding, that will just be an action. If they are scattered over the floor, maybe it takes 10 minutes. If the coins are strewn through rubble, plant growth, or the party is picking out the gold and platinum and leaving the copper from a large mixed pile of coins, then maybe that's an hour or more.
And that's about it.
4. How do you handle item valuation in your game?
Xanathar's gives hints at how the handle this. Proficiency with Jeweler's Tools gives your the ability to "Identify Gems. You can identify gems and determine their value at a glance."
From this I read that a highly-skilled character can valuate certain items with one action. If you have skill in an appropriate tool, you might not need to make a roll. If you don't have an appropriate tool proficiency, you have to roll, usually using INT (Investigation) but History, Religion, and Nature could all be helpful, depending on what is being valuated.
I don't see any specific feats that help, other than skilled and prodigy, which are helpful in that they allow you to take more skills.
I'm also surprised that there are not any backgrounds that really help, other than by giving your skills or tool proficiencies that could be helpful. I'm thinking of creating two new backgrounds: fence (variant) and auctioneer. These backgrounds would have advantage on all skill checks make to valuate items.
Based on this, my initial thoughts on how to resolve valuations of various categories of items are given below.
Jewels, Gems, and Precious Metals
If you have proficiency in jeweler's tools, you successfully evaluate any jewel, gemstone, precious metal with one action, no skill check required. If the item is particularly exotic a roll may be required. Note: this doesn't detect fakes. An investigation check using your jeweler's tools proficiency is still required to determine if an item is genuine or not. How long that will take and whether access to a lab or special materials is required is up to the DM, but I would generally rule that only a few minutes are needed.
Smith Tools can act as jeweler's tools for common precious metals.
Without an appropriate tool proficiency, a roll is required. INT (Investigation) is the default, but INT(History) or INT(Religion) could also be used depending on the nature of the item being valuated.
Art Work
A tool proficiency only helps for types of artwork that involved such tools.
- Calligrapher’s Supplies = valuate decorative scrolls, illustrated/illuminated/display books
- Cartographer's Tools = determine whether a map would have value to collectors or researchers and how much it is likely to sell for
- Gaming Set = valuate similar gaming sets
- Glassblower's Tools = valuate glassware, glass beads, stained-glass windows, decorative glass figurines, etc.
- Jeweler's Tools = valuate jewel-decorated items, statues and figurine created from precious materials
- Leatherworking Tools = valuate decorative saddles, leather carving, and other leather-based art
- Musical instrument = valuate similar instruments
- Painters Supplies = valuate paintings and drawings
- Potter's Supplies = valuate pottery, ceramic figurines, and similar works of art
- Smiths Tools = valuate decorative metal items
- Weaver's Tools = valuate tapestries, costumes, and other woven artwork
- Woodcarver's Tools = valuate wooden figurines, fancy wooden tableware, and other wood-carved art items
Without an appropriate tool proficiency, a roll is required. INT (Investigation) is the default, but INT(History) or INT(Religion) could also be used depending on the nature of the item being valuated.
A DM may require more time and research to valuate some items, even with an appropriate tool proficiency.
Furs, Hides, Skins
If you have proficiency in leather-working tools, you successfully identify and valuate any hide, fur, pelt, skin or similar item, no skill check required. If the item is particularly exotic a roll may be required. Again, a DM may determine an item is so rare that further time and perhaps access to special equipment, material, or references is required.
Weaver's Tools can act like leather working tools for wool and hairs used as fibers for making cloth.
Without an appropriate tool proficiency, a roll is required. INT (Investigation) is the default, but INT(Nature) could also be used.
Other
The above are for where valuating tends to be more common and important, but the same general rules can be used for any item, applying the appropriate proficiencies. Smith Tools can allow you to automatically evaluate metal armor and weapons. Weaver's Tools can do the same for clothing. Leatherworking Tools for leather armor, saddles, etc. Cobbler's tools for footwear. And so forth.
Anyway, what are your thoughts? For those of you who do anything other than just telling the players the value of items, how to you handle valuations?
