How To Do Wildshape

[Steely_Dan]

I think the barbarian

Please, let that be a Background, you can have a barbaric party (just like you can have a samurai one).

 

[TwinBahamut]

This is an idea I'm certainly willing to entertain. As I've said, though, a class focused on shapechanging should drop some of the other stuff that druids have traditionally had, e.g. healing, melee ability, beastmaster petlord, weather control/gaia's revenge combat caster, combat buffer/debuffer and so on.

The class should have focus, or if we go the unfocused route, wild shaping shouldn't be made into the class's core conceit.

Splitting the druid into multiple classes is an idea that has a lot of appeal for me.

In the end I don't care if the Druid name gets attached to the beastmaster, the shapechanger, or whatever. I just want to see some original thinking to use the concepts and mechanics we've been talking about to their fullest.

We are very much in agreement here. This kind of thing is why I really like the Druid/Shaman split from 4E. Druids held on to wildshaping and a range of magical abilities, while the Shaman took the animal companion (remade into a spirit companion), healing powers, and terrain-altering effects (terrain may seem like an odd fit, but it really works with the way WotC implemented the Spirit Companion).

With that split, the Druid becomes a kind of Wizard who has the freedom to transform into a beast and wade into melee, while the Shaman becomes a more focused master of zone control and support. It really works well.

Of course, the 4E Druid didn't even really need the spellcasting. The need to be a shapechanger/spellcaster forced wildshape to use very simplistic rules, and building a Druid that can take on different forms to carry out different tasks would be just as interesting.

It would also be nice to see a true non-magical beast-tamer class. Something that specializes in the idea more than the Ranger, and uses a more powerful and substantial pet than the Shaman's spirit ally. This is another idea that you could branch off from the older Druid and use to make an entire class, really.

 

[SlimJim]

I think it should be a feature, but not one that you automatically get. I believe it should be a build option. I have 3 builds in mind right now: wild shaper, animal companion, and spiritualist (to emulate the shaman from 4e, which I thought was cool, but doesnt deserve a whole class).

I don't like the piling on of features that the druid gets when they end up getting a companion, wild shapr, AND spells. That's just too much to track, I think. They get a build, and some spells. Done.
I have the same opinion about the ranger. They shouldn't have an animal companion as well as a weapon focus, IMO. Their animal companion IS a weapon focus. Also, I don't like them getting spells, but thats a different discussion.

 

[steeldragons]

I find it interesting that in 7 pages of posts in this thread, no one has mentioned the 1e shapechanging abilities of the druid class.

It doesn't have to be from 1st level on...it doesn't have to be any time I want all of the time...it doesn't have to be something the druid class focuses on or was "always built around."

You couldn't do it at all until 7th level. You got to do it 3 times per day. 1 mammal, 1 reptile, 1 bird. (and then, of course the healing element when you changed back) That's it. 3 times per day...whether you were 7th level or 27th. And any animals you wanted...but only 1 mammal, 1 reptile and 1 bird per day.

I prefer this style (not necessarily the animal type restriction, but...) as a feature of the class, but not THE defining feature. You had to get to 7th level before you EVER shapeshifted!

THE defining feature, as someone noted in here someplace are the DRUIDIC/NATURE SPELLS! Not some totally overpowering ability that no other class can possibly compare with.

A nice flavorful, but limited ability...that's all it has to be.

Now, whether you want to work that into the spell list or a Channel Divinity [or "Channel Nature" in the Druid's case] limited uses per day ability...I don't really care. Either way can work.

--SD

 

[tuxgeo]

I find it interesting that in 7 pages of posts in this thread, no one has mentioned the 1e shapechanging abilities of the druid class.

It doesn't have to be from 1st level on...it doesn't have to be any time I want all of the time...it doesn't have to be something the druid class focuses on or was "always built around."

You couldn't do it at all until 7th level. You got to do it 3 times per day. 1 mammal, 1 reptile, 1 bird. (and then, of course the healing element when you changed back) That's it. 3 times per day...whether you were 7th level or 27th. And any animals you wanted...but only 1 mammal, 1 reptile and 1 bird per day.

I prefer this style (not necessarily the animal type restriction, but...) as a feature of the class, but not THE defining feature. You had to get to 7th level before you EVER shapeshifted! . . .

That would have to be optional if it were to fit with the concept of "unification edition."
There should be some kind of "dial" in there to allow the game to accomodate divergent playstyles, so some people could play 5E druids in 4E's style without waiting until 7th level to wildshape.

 

[steeldragons]

That would have to be optional if it were to fit with the concept of "unification edition."
There should be some kind of "dial" in there to allow the game to accomodate divergent playstyles, so some people could play 5E druids in 4E's style without waiting until 7th level to wildshape.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like 7th level was somehow relevant/the magic number.

I just meant to say that a druid's shapechanging should be limited. An element/feature of their class powers, but not "the" defining feature. If it comes in at 7th or 10th or 5th or, even, 1st....make it once per day every other level, for example.

The "optional", it seems to me, should be for those who want to their Druids to be all about "Wildshaping". Make that the variant/theme/specialty, as others have said, that focuses on feats for shapeshifting stuff at the expense of spellcasting or other druidic traits/abilities (whatever they happen to be).

But yes, dials for just about anything works just fine. For that, you need a default...a starting baseline...and as far as I'm concerned that does not mean "go as powerful/extreme on one thing as you can" and adjust to taste from there. More useful, imho, is either A) Start as SIMPLE as possible and add to it OR B) Start in the EXACT MIDDLE with dial options for less or more.

Sample dial for using the latter:
Dial 1: Druids do not have any Shapeshifting power.
Dial 2: A Druid can change into any normal animal once per day; OR Shapeshifting is a spell Druid's may choose to take. It's a 3rd level spell so the Druid is 5th level before being able to use it; OR Shapeshifting is one way to use a "Channel Nature" class ability; some/any other mechanic that makes the number of time fairly limited.
Dial 3/Default Druid: Beginning at 5th level, a Druid can shapeshift into any normal animal form 3 times per day. This ability uses no spell slots or any other resource mechanic, it's just its own thing/3 times.
Dial 4: Druid can shapechange as many times per day as their level + Wis. bonus.
Dial 5: "Wildshaper" theme/specialty. The Druid can shapeshift at will and is not limited to normal animal types. Can also be prehistoric, mystical and elemental creatures.

 

[slobster]

I prefer this style (not necessarily the animal type restriction, but...) as a feature of the class, but not THE defining feature. You had to get to 7th level before you EVER shapeshifted!
--SD

But I would like there to be an option to play a character that shapeshifts from level 1. Not necessarily that powerful, and not necessarily called a druid, but if one of my players (or myself) wants to play a shapeshifter, I'd rather they didn't have to slog through a few months of sessions before they earned the ability to play the character they find interesting.

EDIT: saw your response. The thing is I don't mind if shapeshifting is the defining feature of the druid. In that case, make another class who takes up the other bits that older edition druids covered. Instead of having to set up some complex system of "dials" (how would that be balanced against other classes and their dials?), just have a few different wilderness themed character classes which, taken together, allow you to make pretty much any character you want, each of which focuses on some aspect of "druidness". Then, if you want to ease back on the amount of shapeshifting in your campaign, you just disallow the shapeshifting class, leaving the other tree-huggers untouched.

 

[tuxgeo]

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like 7th level was somehow relevant/the magic number.

I just meant to say that a druid's shapechanging should be limited. An element/feature of their class powers, but not "the" defining feature. If it comes in at 7th or 10th or 5th or, even, 1st....make it once per day every other level, for example.

The "optional", it seems to me, should be for those who want to their Druids to be all about "Wildshaping". Make that the variant/theme/specialty, as others have said, that focuses on feats for shapeshifting stuff at the expense of spellcasting or other druidic traits/abilities (whatever they happen to be).

But yes, dials for just about anything works just fine. . . .

Good stuff as usual.

Also, for other people in this thread who may have missed it, there is a similar discussion in another thread titled "we only need the druid class." My main suggestion in that thread is here.

 

[Sadras]

Not all wizards throw fireballs...why must all druids use wildshape?

Please quote me where I said that ALL druids must use wildshape. Please. The poster I quoted wanted to do away with wildshape completely from the druid class = as in NO druid can wildshape because it doesnt exist in the literature/mythology he has read. I merely said that if he was to go by mythology/literature should we remove fireball from the wizards spell lists completely on the same basis.

 

[MarkB]

I'm slightly amused that with 75 votes in and a fair vote spread, nobody is in favour of Wild Shape being an encounter power. They really have fallen out of favour, haven't they?