How to Fix a Slavery situation without murder? (Solved!)

[Al]

Never mind the road to hell being paved with good intentions, how about the road to falling from paladinhood being lined with disproportionate punishment.

The chain of causation from the "murder the slavers" side seems to run as follows: slavery is evil, therefore we can kill the slavers. That's not very sophisticated. There is an underlying assumption that if someone is committing evil acts, then that's automatic licence to sneak into their house and slit their throat. I cannot see how anyone can argue that this is either lawful or good. Good and lawful people, and especially lawful good people, and doubly so for paladins, follow the whole "proportionate punishment" line, which unfortunately means that you can't punish people in an unrestricted fashion for their crimes just because the crimes are judged to be wrong. The most absurd argument raised is "enslave the slavers"! What? Would anyone making that point engage brain and then edit their posts? Even the most cursory logic seems to reveal that if slavery is evil always and absolutely, then enslaving people is also evil. See? It wasn't too hard. The childish notion of so-called "poetic justice" doesn't really seem to hold any philosophical water. Oh the great irony! What a hoot! Perhaps we could introduce mandatory rape as a penalty for rapists? Torture as a device against torturers?

Ask yourselves: how can it be unacceptable for someone else to enslave, but perfectly acceptable for the paladin to enslave? If slavery is evil always and absolutely, then, duh, slavery is evil always and absolutely, regardless of who is enslaving whom. One of the most important differences between good and evil is that not only are their goals difference but so are their methodologies; using evil measures against evil people is still evil. Full stop, and despite what the asinine warblings of the BoED tell us (poison is evil - but ravages aren't!)

This situation calls for proportionate measures. Liberating the slaves is the first step, since it both alleviates the suffering of the slaves themselves and simultaneously punishes the slavers (since they get their property taken). The second is to operate a concerted effort to restrict and eventually move to the abolition of slavery. But simply going in there and killing them is counter-productive and immoral.

 

[Mallus]

But simply going in there and killing them is counter-productive and immoral.

Depending on the players, it could also be cathartic.

And fun.

 

[Storyteller01]

Take some time to case the area, and find out where the slavers keep their food (they won't eat the same food as the slaves). Let the slaves in on the deal so they know when to act. Drug the food, knocking the slavers unconscious (you don't really need to roll if its for the story). If it's possible, instead of taking the slavers to a country where slavery is illegal, you can take the slaves (again, if possible)

 

[Kemrain]

First, and this is largely irrelevant, it seems to me that selling people into slavery is while still horrible enough to warrant extreme measures is more merciful then killing them. This seems to me to be largely manifestly true given A.) that the very scenario you are plotting has some liklihood of happening and freeing them B.) time as a slave after holding slaves is unlikely to make them long to hold slaves again.

This comes down to a difference of opinion between you and my character. I can understand many situations where slavery or imprisonment would be preferrable to death, but Melissa's the type who'd rather die than lose her freedom. This gets extrapolated onto others, whether they share the sentiment or not. Do keep in mind that, while she's trying to be good for the Angel's sake, she's still half demon, and the outrage she feels towards these slavers is manifesting itsself as a desire to end their lives. She has restraint (note her other parent was human), but only so much, and this will show in her personality and morals. The issue of slavery or death is a black and white one for her. Slavery is one of the absolute worst things you can do to a person, and is far worse than simply killing them, in her eyes. Slavery or be tortured to death for the next ten years? Well, maybe slavery isn't worse than that... She thinks that killing the slavers (quickly and as painlessly as possible) is what's caleld for, but she's deferring to the Angel, and letting her morals take a back seat. This goes nicely into your next issue.

Second, if you take all their stuff they are already automatically in a position where they can't buy slaves again. Unless I am sorely mistaken this does not sound like a world or group of people with access to insurance. They are already in trouble with the important local crime syndicates, their profession has a heavy tax, they are likely not too heavily capitalized and you're going to be taking most of their capital anyway, so once you pull this off, if you pull this off, they will no longer be capable of holding slaves. They might still end up as part of the slave holder economy but their particular nasty power as a group will be broken.

As a result, considering mass murder as the best preventative means seems silly to me when your primary goal is massive robbery or burglary which will achieve the same end. Bloodshed may be inevitable to achieve your end, but by no means is it necessary.

Well, while Voushta is the kind of place where you'd find an insurance market, we don't know for sure. We're also pretty damn sure that these people have money and ties outside of the slaving business, and while the loss of all their property would be a major setback, and might take some of them out of the business, others will merely be inconvienienced by loans from banks, associates or family. I've been making the assumption that they don't have 100% of their assets put into this slavery deal, and again, while it would hurt them financially to take their posessions, I doubt it would put them down for good.
It also would do nothing about their cruelty towards slaves, for they could get a job working for another slaver and go right back to their old ways.
Just a different set of assumptions. Maybe you're right. I kinda hope we don't have the opportunity to find out...

Third, while there are a number of strategems you could go with that seem just as likely to me as the extremely risky strategem of murdering them all in their sleep, How easy is that going to be for you guys, c'mon?, the bottom line seems to me that you are working on too short a time table.

How easy will this be? We don't know. We need to do more reconnaissance. It might turn out to be much easier than we thought, or it might turn out to be so hard that convincing Belle to wait becomes trivial. In a week to a month the situation may well be completely different. The slavers will probably be down to 12, their origional number, since their defeat of Diamondback's men. Then again, we don't know that will happen at all. To be honest, if we have a reasonable chance of killing 40, instead of 12, it might be worth the rush.

Fourth, this is by far one of the awesomest set-ups for a session I've heard of, I wish you luck. I think it will be awesome whichever way you go, I just hope you don't have regrets about working to have found a way to pull it off better.

Thanks. I'm looking forward to game this weekend. Looks like it'll be on Saturday (but I'm ready tonight! aww!) I'll let everyone know what happened as soon as I get a chance to ENWorld again. (Probably Monday.) I hope we live up to the awsomest expectations.

- Kemrain the Pleased so Many People Like the Game.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

OK, let me get this straight...

Slavery automatically equals bad in the setting, correct? Slavery, while legal, is not very well regulated, nor is heavily policed.

Honestly, that wouldn't last long and makes a revolt ready to kick off really easily.

BUT, that isn't the issue, is it? The issue is Belle is pushing the party to kill all of these people, and M Angel-Wife agrees with her, correct?

Now, we have an opportunity for long term fun...

What if...

Belle was really an agent of darkness, sent to tempt and nurse both Angel-Wife and the Angel over the path of darkness and into the status of The Fallen? With a little contructive hinting, the party will realize that the precocious 11 year old Rog 3 is really a denizen of darkness bent on leading the happy couple into Hell...

OR...

What if Diamondback is on the warpath to nail the slavers because they have taken to abusing children, violating thier rights and possibly causing the Slaver's Guild a fortune in fines, levies, punishments and sanctions? Diamondback is more than happy to have the party accompany them because he could use the extra muscle and if he handles the problem first, the government doesn't get involved and start looking at his business too closely.

OR...

What if this particular band of slavers, and the higher-ups in the Guild, are actually forces of darkness, real dyed in the wool BBEG types, bent on enslaving all of humanity to feed upon and slake thier vile lusts upon. When the PC's attack, they unmask 2 or three of the hideous creatures (lower class demons) and the discovery of this allows a temporary pardon for the PC's, PROVIDING they help break the power of the slaver guild? A nice lead in to do some adapting to a Scourge of the Slave Lords adaptation.

OR...

Cut Belle's throat and leave her in the ditch. One murder VS 40.

OR...

These guys represent the scum of the slaver's guild, while a small faction, still a politically powerful one, that prevents legislation codifying and regulating slave rights and laws of treatment. The PC's, when investigating the slavers, are approached by the other slaver political factions, and offered cash to perform assassinations and murder the slavers in that compound. In return, they show the prospective law making sexual/physical abuse of slaves highly illegal, putting in the year and a day runaway clause, codfying just how much a slave recieves for spending money and monetary compensation, what levels of standards of living that the slaves must live in, etc etc. If the PC's can eliminate the 40 slavers, it eliminates a huge block of voting power and will allow the passage of laws to prevent a slave revolt and to ease tensions between the nation that has legalized slavery and the nation that abhors it.



Just a few ways to fix it off the top of my head...

 

[Al]

Depending on the players, it could also be cathartic.

And fun.

Sure. But it's not good, and this *is* an alignment debate, albeit perhaps thinly veiled .

 

[D+1]

I've got a problem in my game.. The PCs are coming up against an encounter in which they plan to murder up to 40 people in their sleep.. It's not a good act by any means, but I can't give them an alternative.

It's not GOOD, but in the absence of a better alternative it's not EVIL either, nor is it chaotic so the PC's should not have any problems with it. Perhaps regrets that there WASN'T a better alternative but not that they took the course of action that was right and proper.

Problem is, Slavery is Legal in this part of the world.

Legal has nothing to do with what's right/wrong, good/evil. If the PC's are in agreement that the girl has been abused, that her enslavers deserve punishment for pepetrating the evil of slavery and additional abuse of the girl (and others no doubt) then if it's the easiest, safest way there's no reason why killing them all in their sleep is categorically a bad thing. It's possible that a PC might have a narrower view of how and why they will take certain actions and thus decline to take this step, but it's not DISallowed for everyone in general as evil, etc.

That means that the PCs can't get the place shut down. Even if they freed all the slaves, the slavers there would just go and buy more slaves, and other people would suffer.

If the PC's SHOULD choose to simply free the slaves with a minimum of violence they are STILL not responsible for the slavers LATER actions in continuing their slave trade. The SLAVERS are responsible for the slavers actions - not the PC's. In particular if the PC's make it clear that they intend to do their best to disrupt, make unprofitable, or outright destroy the slave trade and those who practice it then if slavers later continue their evil ways - well, they've been warned and given MORE than enough leeway.

There are also several other "farms", where slavers gather, and none of them are going to be affected directly.

My own new campaign features legal, widespread slavery as an accepted institution. I don't think that campaign events will change that but if one or all the player should decide to make it their mission in life, well I have no problem in completely altering the intended course of the campaign to make it all about slave wars.

But either way, the slavers are just business men. They're people that are doing something legal where they live, and don't want a fight.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean that they are legally protected from ALL the consequences of their chosen profession. If a slaver tries to capture you and you kill many of his troops as you resist - are you committing a crime? As a matter of practicality the laws of slavery are that you are allowed to BUY and SELL slaves - but you need to be careful about where you GET them. People tend to get annoyed when their leaders/government rather than protecting them allows their enslavement by any yahoo within the borders.

Where is the girl from? Where are the other slaves from? If they've been bought and sold more than once it's possible to have been captured in THIS country, taken to another to be sold, and then despite being a "citizen" to be taken to your homeland and continue your slavery. Even if such laws that would prevent taking slaves IN your own country have been overlooked then he is theoretically ALLOWED to take you captive, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to resist. It doesn't mean that if dad comes to claim his son, wife, daughter that DAD doesn't have an even GREATER right to claim his family as his property and possibly even require the slaver to pay him damages for depriving him of his property.

Perhaps the PC's will find that these slave farms are in fierce competition and can manipulate them into fighting each other because they each believe that "the other guy" has stolen slaves from him, and then the PC's free as many as they can and encourage the formation of a slave rebellion. The larger the slave population the more difficult it is to maintain control of the slaves - look at Roman history.

 

[Storyteller01]

This would do nothing to discourage the Slavers from simply collecting more children to abuse. It would even benefit them, as they'd have more revenue to spend in the hunt. Buying the slaves would free them, but would be counter productive in the long term. Plus, unless we take the slaver's wagons and food, we couldn't keep the children alive very long.

- Kemrain the Expectant Murderer.

The boy and the starfish...

 

[The Shadow]

I'm glad somebody mentioned "Guardians of the Flame", as I was going to if they didn't. Just about required reading in this situation.

One burning question I have is whether Voushtan slavers raid for slaves in other nations, or even at home? I believe it was said that slaves are POW's, convicts, or children of convicts. I take it that these kids are in the latter category? (Even Belle?) Or have they been snatched from somewhere else?

If Voushtans raid for slaves across their borders, then by tolerating such activity, the Voushtan government has in effect declared war on its neighbors, and the slavers are in essence enemy soldiers. No moral conflict in throat-slitting there, that I can see.

And if they're not soldiers, then they're certainly terrorists. Child-raping terrorists at that. Again, no moral conflict. This isn't just modern morality (for those who care; I myself am not a moral relativist); NO culture has ever taken well to foreigners coming in and grabbing their folks as chattel.

I doubt that even Voushtans like slavers much. Who does? Even people who accept slavery think slavers are scum. Especially when there's no "convenient" racial element to it to reassure people that they aren't next. Even if things end up rather badly, I'd think that one could spin the PR one's way fairly easily. "My stepfather's niece was raped by these bastards! Was I supposed to stand idly by?" If that's not a tearjerker, I don't know what is.

I agree that more recon is necessary. The poison stratagem is a good one. If it were me, I wouldn't bother to kill the ones who are unconscious from the drug; let the crimelord do that, I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige.

 

[Wycen]

This brings back bad memories. Hauntingly similar to your story.

It all started when we, and by we I mean the rest of the party since I was playing a half-ogre barbarian, snuck in and murdered a guy while he slept with a little girl in his bed. She turned out to be his daughter and we were manipulated by an evil aunt.

Then they get a bug up their backside to take on the slavers. Slavery is legal in this empire. In fact Imperial Guardsmen were in the city for military manuevers at the time.

So various game sessions revolve around making the slavers life miserable. Fortunately I was able to entertain myself, cause I cared nothing about this vendetta. Such waisted sessions include trying to get my half-ogre into intimidating the bidders at a slave auction, ambushing a slave caravan and setting them free, digging under the sewers for quick routes to move to and fro, and the grand finale.

Before I get to the grand finale, you have to understand that despite the ridiculous things the party did, the DM never did anything more than slap the players wrists, even with flagrant running through the streets and guards all over the place.

So the grand finale was an assault on the slavers compound. Frontal assault, no subterfuge. I played an insane gnome necromancer since my half-ogre was no longer the same level as the rest of the party for sitting out a few sessions and I simply didn't care about what was going on. We fireballed the place, ran a wagonload of alchemists fire and tar into the front door, killed all the guards, went inside and did more of the same. The slaver escaped into the sewers and brief succor in a hidden temple to the god of murder until he himself was sacrificed by the head priestess and then a baby demon was birthed out of the slavers body... and I finally had enough and joined up with the baby demon and priestess and descended until hell or wherever.

If the party enjoys everything and the DM goes with it, it is fine. Too bad it didn't work out for some of us.