D&D (2024) How to fix multiclassing?

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
What?
This is not what I said...

I said: why do you want to restrict a perfectly fine rule by adding needlessly punishing rules. PB was deliberatley dependend on total character level to allow freedom of multiclassing.
Why are you so mad that people don't do even splits. Is your play rstricted by people who just use multiclassing as is?
Again, the different forms of MC can exist side by side in the rules for the GM to choose from what is allowed & what is not if they are actually "optional". WRT your "punish" comment though, who decides if an "optional" rule is allowed in a game, the gm or a player who wants to use it? If it's the GM then allowing a more restrictive version of multiclassing rather than simply saying "no MC is not allowed" then how is anyone being "punished" when restrictive MC is less restrictive than no MC? If it's the player then is the "optional" rule optional at all?

3.x/5e style multiclassing does create problems for the gm where Alice finds a build that with a small dip allows far greater power than bob who is playing one of the classes Alice is using. Now Bob feels pressured to do the same & the GM needs to somehow handle both players on very different power scales but needs to do so in a way that won't be problematic if bob takes his new toys & does what Alice did in a level or two.

With a more restrictive version like is being discussed both Alice & Bob have very different needs & Bob can't take the fancy treasure he got to instantly do what Alice did. If Cindy wants to do a 3.x/5e style MC build for flavor rather than power she can talk to the GM & make her case for an exception by explaining why xyz is more flavor than power or how it's just filling a need the group has. In a case like Cindy's the GM even has a strong case for pulling cindy aside for a talk if it turns out that N levels later there's a big problem that wasn't noticed or discussed.
 

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Again, the different forms of MC can exist side by side in the rules for the GM to choose from what is allowed & what is not if they are actually "optional".

Snip.

I don't object optional rules.
My answer was specifically to the idea that when you multiclass you should only get your prof bonus for your lowest class level.

This is what I meant with needlessly punishing people who multiclass, just because someone thinks you should split evenly.
If you object the word "punishing", use needlessly penalizing. If you as DM don't want people to not use the optional multiclass rule, just disallow multiclassing and don't add so many penalties that it equals outright not allowing it.
One is honest, one is not.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
The way I solved it in my system was to remove direct multiclassing and then having feats to let you steal another class's stuff; spells known, sneak attack dice, evasion, smites, the fighters'..., bardic inspiration, the ranger's...., expertise, etc.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Multiclassing is in theory an optional rule, but I have seen it at 100% of games that I played.
So, in my experience it's a core rule. Same as feats.

Problem with multiclassing is that classes need to be defined early on.
That is have lot's of features at levels 1-3.

early on, that is not a problem, most of the time 6th level single class is better than 3/3 split. but 5/1 could be "cheesed" into some OP combo.
at 10th level 5/5 split will mostly be horrible compared to 10th level character, but 8/2 or 9/1 or 7/3 could again be a problem.

also, to me, even split of two classes would be perfect representation for multiclassing.
And only two classes.

within one level of eachother.

But, how to deal with the power problem of missing higher level features?

solution could come from 3.5e multiclass feats from Complete adventurer/scoundrel.
I almost always multiclass and in general like the system as is. I've never really ran into the situation where a split was horrible. Other players I play with never mutliclass. Multiclassing can offer some huge synergies but doing things like delaying ASIs and spell slot progression evens that out I think.

I had a 14th level character who was 6 Fighter (arcane Archer), 7 Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 1 Sorcerer (Shadow). She was pretty awesome in play I thought and each class brought some huge capabilities. A 14th level Sorcerer would have been more powerful in combat (if I had focused on Charisma) but I am not sure a 14th level Fighter or Rogue would have been, especially in the party we had and especially since she was a human and would not have had darkvision.

I am playing a 12th level Enchantment Wizard 4/Order Cleric 8 and she is pretty awesome. She is a Mountain Dwarf so she can wear plate with an 8 strength, has a +2 shield and has lots of spell slots for shield spell, so she is rocking like an effective 27AC. Embodiment of Law and plate is the perfect match with Hypnotic Gaze. When I have played enchantment wizards before Hypnotic Gaze was tough because you had to get within 5 feet of the target and stay there. So if he saved you were getting wailed on, if not you had to use your action to maintain it so you really couldn't do anything else. This multiclass character can get within 5 feet because she has a great AC and she can use hypnotic gaze and then upcast Hold Person, Command or Mind Whip as a bonus action. Being able to have a spiritual weapon going around banging things with a bonus action while I hold someone with hypnotic Gaze using an action is pretty cool too. Overall I would say this is probably the most powerful 12th level character I have played and much better than a single class Enchantment Wizard or Order Cleric.
 

Clint_L

Hero
Current multi-class system feels like it works pretty well.

Side note: your cleric is a dwarf with plate and a strength of 8? Jeebus...how do they get within 5' of the target when you can only move at 15'? If I was your DM I would have the mobs maneuvering around your slow butt all day long! And what do you do when your party has to move quickly? That just seems like a massive handicap!
 

Current multi-class system feels like it works pretty well.

Side note: your cleric is a dwarf with plate and a strength of 8? Jeebus...how do they get within 5' of the target when you can only move at 15'? If I was your DM I would have the mobs maneuvering around your slow butt all day long! And what do you do when your party has to move quickly? That just seems like a massive handicap!
Dwarves don´t reduce movement speed for low strength in armor.
 



aurvay

Explorer
The way I solved it in my system was to remove direct multiclassing and then having feats to let you steal another class's stuff; spells known, sneak attack dice, evasion, smites, the fighters'..., bardic inspiration, the ranger's...., expertise, etc.
This is definitely the best solution, I believe.
I almost always multiclass and in general like the system as is. I've never really ran into the situation where a split was horrible. Other players I play with never mutliclass. Multiclassing can offer some huge synergies but doing things like delaying ASIs and spell slot progression evens that out I think.

I had a 14th level character who was 6 Fighter (arcane Archer), 7 Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 1 Sorcerer (Shadow). She was pretty awesome in play I thought and each class brought some huge capabilities. A 14th level Sorcerer would have been more powerful in combat (if I had focused on Charisma) but I am not sure a 14th level Fighter or Rogue would have been, especially in the party we had and especially since she was a human and would not have had darkvision.

I am playing a 12th level Enchantment Wizard 4/Order Cleric 8 and she is pretty awesome. She is a Mountain Dwarf so she can wear plate with an 8 strength, has a +2 shield and has lots of spell slots for shield spell, so she is rocking like an effective 27AC. Embodiment of Law and plate is the perfect match with Hypnotic Gaze. When I have played enchantment wizards before Hypnotic Gaze was tough because you had to get within 5 feet of the target and stay there. So if he saved you were getting wailed on, if not you had to use your action to maintain it so you really couldn't do anything else. This multiclass character can get within 5 feet because she has a great AC and she can use hypnotic gaze and then upcast Hold Person, Command or Mind Whip as a bonus action. Being able to have a spiritual weapon going around banging things with a bonus action while I hold someone with hypnotic Gaze using an action is pretty cool too. Overall I would say this is probably the most powerful 12th level character I have played and much better than a single class Enchantment Wizard or Order Cleric.
You realize that this is the prime example of having your cake and eating it too, and you just confessed to it being your most powerful build so far, right?

Your pro-MC argument is exactly why multiclassing leaves a bad taste in most DMs mouths.
 

This is definitely the best solution, I believe.

You realize that this is the prime example of having your cake and eating it too, and you just confessed to it being your most powerful build so far, right?

Your pro-MC argument is exactly why multiclassing leaves a bad taste in most DMs mouths.

No. It is just an argument that non-casters are underpowered. It just means, that non-casters should have worthwhile options at higher character levels.

Your best solution is my worst fear.
So why not have both as optional rules and all people are happy?
 

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