How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[diaglo]

Unless he throws a weapon.?

he can't throw a weapon in that scenario.
the wizard has cover. very good cover.

edit: in the scenario Pat painted and you quoted.

 

[diaglo]

Not always.

If he is in disguise, they might be caught somewhat unaware. Four possibilities (as an example):

1) The assassin attacks, wins init, and the guards are surprised.

The King dies.

2) The assassin attacks, loses init, and the guards are surprised.

The King dies.

3) The assassin attacks, wins init, and the guards are not surprised.

The King dies.

4) The assassin attacks, loses init, and the guards are not surprised.

The Assassin dies.

and unless he wants to be a matyr. the assassin dies in all of those scenarios. pretty st00pid short lived assassin once he attacks. all the guys slice and dice him.

 

[Pickaxe]

Scenario 1:

The room is empty. Suspecting danger beyond the other door, PC #1 decides to stand beside the door and push it open, while PC #2 stands 30' away with his crossbow trained at the door. #1 approaches the door and makes a Listen check, hearing breathing on the other side. Now both sides are aware of each other, but cannot immediately engage. #1 decides to act first by signalling to his partner and pushing open the door. Everyone rolls for initiative. If the bandit wins, he can dash through the door, past #1 who cannot attack, charge 60', and catch #2 flat-footed before he even has a chance to release the trigger.

Scenario 2:
Same as above, except a second bandit happened to be walking through the room as the PCs enter. Combat starts with both sides are surprised, so there is no surprise round and initiative is resolved normally. #1 moves off to attack the bandit. He doesn't look too tough, so #2 decides to let #1 handle him, and uses his turn to cover the suspicious-looking door by readying his crossbow to fire at anyone that comes through. Round 1 ends. Hearing the sound of combat, the bandit leader decides to open the door and rush through, hopefully catching the enemy unawares. Since he counts as a new, aware combatant, he enters combat between rounds 1 & 2 and everyone re-rolls initiative (as per the DMG). However, #2 was waiting for exactly something like this to happen, so his readied action happens before anyone else can act. Thus, he automatically gets a shot at the leader.

Now compare these two scenarios. In the first one, all initiative modifiers being equal, the bandit leader has a 1 in 3 chance of winning initiative and attacking #2 before he can react - this despite the fact that #2 was supposedly prepared for this action and was not being distracted in any way.

In the second one, since combat has started, it becomes impossible for the bandit leader to attack #2 before he gets a shot off, even though if anything you'd expect #2 to be a little more distracted by the fighting happening a few squares away from him.

How can you rationalize something like this? It seems obvious to me that #2 should be every bit as prepared to fire in scenario 1 as in scenario 2, if not more so. And this is far from a contrived scenario.

In scenario #1, the bandit leader can only charge out in the first round if he is aware of the party on the other side. If he is not aware, then the crossbow goes off when the door opens and the leader is revealed. If he is aware, then he has prepared his charge the same as the crossbow has trained itself on the door, and therefore he has a chance of getting his charge off before the party acts. Furthermore, initiative should probably be rolled before the door is opened, especially if both parties are aware. #1 can delay until #2's initiative, or ready opening the door when #2 says "GO!", having readied his shot.

The rules already allow you to avoid "nonsensical" situations by simply starting combat whenever two parties sense that they are hostile enemies. But that means rolling initiative. Granting everyone a free readied action at all times before initiative is neither necessary, good, nor supported by the rules.

--Axe

 

[TimSmith]

Most important rule in the DMG

Rule 1: the DM is always right

Rule 2: refer to rule 1

If a game mechanic strikes you as wrong for the situation, then it probably is-at least for your style of game. As DM you decide when combat starts and when they are surprised or flat footed. Yes, you have game mechanics to help, but they are there to HELP. Personally I think there have been many eloquent descriptions to explain why someone might get you flat footed (esp Patryn's) even when you think you are ready, but if you really don't think they apply, IT'S YOUR CALL. If in your mind YOUR king's guards are super alert, then they are and would no doubt get to tackle the assassin or interpose themselves-because as stated in the DMG the turn based action of D&D is an abstraction. If on the other hand, you think they are liable to be distracted, as described by Patryn, then let the dice determine their awareness via initiative- or even pre determine that they WILL be surprised/flat footed if they are tired or whatever.

(I know this is a rules forum so we are debating the finer points, but really the section that says "the DM determines when combat starts and who is aware" is the important bit- all else is just to try to help you when in doubt!)

 

[KarinsDad]

he can't throw a weapon in that scenario.
the wizard has cover. very good cover.

edit: in the scenario Pat painted and you quoted.

Yes he can. Go read the rules. He might not hit, but the Wizard does not have total cover.

 

[KarinsDad]

Simpler take 2 level of barbarian, still technically flat-footed but you don't suffer any of the disadvantages.

Incorrect.

You do not lose the Dex penalty. But, you are still flat-footed which means you cannot take Attack of Opportunities.

 

[diaglo]

Yes he can. Go read the rules. He might not hit, but the Wizard does not have total cover.

edit: you are correct that he can throw. i made to general a statement with that.


but i didn't say total cover.

i said cover.

if he wants to toss away a weapon on the off chance he can still hit that is his perogative. but given the probability it is probably best he just not do it.

 

[KarinsDad]

(I know this is a rules forum so we are debating the finer points, but really the section that says "the DM determines when combat starts and who is aware" is the important bit- all else is just to try to help you when in doubt!)

Where does it state "the DM determines when combat starts"?

It does state that the DM decides when characters are aware, but everything else in the DMG states that the DM is suppose to allow standard actions, or allow initiative rolls, etc. at the point in time that someone wants to break out hostilities.

If a player wants to break out hostilities, the DM is supposed to be rolling inits at that point, not necessarily the other way around (unless an NPC wants to break out hostilities).

From what is written in the DMG, the DM only decides this for NPCs, not for PCs.

This does not preclude a player from declaring that he wants to ready an action and start combat if he is aware of his opponents.

 

[KarinsDad]

edit: you are correct that he can throw. i made to general a statement with that.


but i didn't say total cover.

i said cover.

if he wants to toss away a weapon on the off chance he can still hit that is his perogative. but given the probability it is probably best he just not do it.

Probability???

Soft cover is only +4. Plus, if the Wizard is flat-footed (as per the discussion), he loses any Dex bonuses. So, the scenario is a fair one for hitting.

And you stated "he can't throw a weapon in that scenario" which is obviously incorrect and what I was responding to.

 

[KarinsDad]

Btw Karin's Dad, if you don't like the highly variable initiative you can force everyone to take 10 and come up with fixed initiative scores. That means the low initiative characters will never beat the higher.

Actually, I cannot.

I am co-DMing where we have agreed that all house rules must be agreed upon by both DMs.

So, I am sometimes stuck with finding "loopholes" in the rules for rules I do not like.