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How to make a game harder?
- Thread starter SRD
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OnlineDM
Adventurer
Sure, you can made 4th edition battles harder for the players if you want to. Basically, raise the experience point budget for the battle. That means more monsters or harder monsters (higher level).
I don't suggest throwing any monster at the party that is more than 5 levels above their level (so, for a 3rd level party no single monster should be above 8th level). But leveling up a monster using the Monster Builder in the D&D Insider Adventure Tools is quick and easy - basically, give them more hit points, higher defenses, higher attack bonuses and higher damage. It might be more fun to just add more monsters, of course.
I've generally found that even-level battles, where the party is of the same level as the battle based on the XP table in the Dungeon Master's Guide, are very easy for a typical party. My default battle is one to two levels above the party, and I have no problem with throwing something four levels higher at them for a real challenge.
The way you run your bad guys matters, too. If the party is fighting against intelligent monsters that use sophisticated battle tactics (focusing fire on one PC, taking advantage of flanking wherever possible, etc.) that can be deadly.
Ultimately the DM has a lot of power. If you WANT to kill your PCs, you can do it. Personally, I aim for some real challenge in every battle, without the goal of wiping the party out completely.
I don't suggest throwing any monster at the party that is more than 5 levels above their level (so, for a 3rd level party no single monster should be above 8th level). But leveling up a monster using the Monster Builder in the D&D Insider Adventure Tools is quick and easy - basically, give them more hit points, higher defenses, higher attack bonuses and higher damage. It might be more fun to just add more monsters, of course.
I've generally found that even-level battles, where the party is of the same level as the battle based on the XP table in the Dungeon Master's Guide, are very easy for a typical party. My default battle is one to two levels above the party, and I have no problem with throwing something four levels higher at them for a real challenge.
The way you run your bad guys matters, too. If the party is fighting against intelligent monsters that use sophisticated battle tactics (focusing fire on one PC, taking advantage of flanking wherever possible, etc.) that can be deadly.
Ultimately the DM has a lot of power. If you WANT to kill your PCs, you can do it. Personally, I aim for some real challenge in every battle, without the goal of wiping the party out completely.
The Little Raven
First Post
Here's a few things that increase the difficulty...
- Use MM3/DSCC design numbers and philosophy. The monsters all hit harder (even if some of them hit less often, like soldiers), are easier to hit, and have cool effects in place of resistances (like dealing damage right back when you hit them with the wrong damage type) or when bloodied (auto-activate powers as well as new powers becoming available).
- Never throw an easy encounter at them. The DMG has guidelines for what constitutes an easy/moderate/hard encounter. Stick to moderate and hard.
- Make it difficult for the players to have extended rests by limiting the number of safe places they can take an extended rest. In my latest hexcrawl, they have to get to a hex that has a safe place (friendly town, special location like an enchanted meadow, etc) before taking an extended rest.
- Use terrain against them as much as possible. Since you're setting up the battlefields they will be fighting on them, put them at a disadvantage. Use enemies that can easily move the players into hazards or difficult terrain. Include terrain features that add powers, and have the monsters use them ruthlessly against the players before even touching their own encounter/recharge powers.
- Overwhelming damage in one encounter can crush the party completely, since they are limited in the ways they can spend a healing surge during an encounter. Everyone has Second Wind, which allows a healing surge value worth of healing and a +2 to Defenses until the end of your next turn... but it means you give up an attack for a round. Healers have a twice (or thrice, later) per encounter heal that adds some bonus healing and/or an additional beneficial effect built in, and some more heals scattered around their power lists. Healing potions and such are still around, but they eat up healing surges and usually give you back less hit points than your surge value.
- Remember that healing surges are the "second layer" of hit points. Neonchameleon's thread on hit points and healing surges is a good resource for understanding how they interact and how this can be displayed in game. Creatures that take away healing surges with successful attacks are scary. Between increased damage and surge removal, a full powered party can leave their first fight in bad shape.
- Use MM3/DSCC design numbers and philosophy. The monsters all hit harder (even if some of them hit less often, like soldiers), are easier to hit, and have cool effects in place of resistances (like dealing damage right back when you hit them with the wrong damage type) or when bloodied (auto-activate powers as well as new powers becoming available).
- Never throw an easy encounter at them. The DMG has guidelines for what constitutes an easy/moderate/hard encounter. Stick to moderate and hard.
- Make it difficult for the players to have extended rests by limiting the number of safe places they can take an extended rest. In my latest hexcrawl, they have to get to a hex that has a safe place (friendly town, special location like an enchanted meadow, etc) before taking an extended rest.
- Use terrain against them as much as possible. Since you're setting up the battlefields they will be fighting on them, put them at a disadvantage. Use enemies that can easily move the players into hazards or difficult terrain. Include terrain features that add powers, and have the monsters use them ruthlessly against the players before even touching their own encounter/recharge powers.
- Overwhelming damage in one encounter can crush the party completely, since they are limited in the ways they can spend a healing surge during an encounter. Everyone has Second Wind, which allows a healing surge value worth of healing and a +2 to Defenses until the end of your next turn... but it means you give up an attack for a round. Healers have a twice (or thrice, later) per encounter heal that adds some bonus healing and/or an additional beneficial effect built in, and some more heals scattered around their power lists. Healing potions and such are still around, but they eat up healing surges and usually give you back less hit points than your surge value.
- Remember that healing surges are the "second layer" of hit points. Neonchameleon's thread on hit points and healing surges is a good resource for understanding how they interact and how this can be displayed in game. Creatures that take away healing surges with successful attacks are scary. Between increased damage and surge removal, a full powered party can leave their first fight in bad shape.
Gort
Explorer
Firstly, what you've read is fallacious. I've TPKed parties in 4ed, as well as picked off people solo. 4e is just as lethal as previous editions.
Should you want harder games, simply raise the level of the opposition, same as previous editions.
Finally, make sure you're using the Monster Manual 3 values for monster damage, which are available here.
Sounds like you're reading grognard propaganda, though. There were tons of threads when 3e came out saying that PCs were now immortal, and they were just as fallacious as these ones.
DarkLord Of DForce
First Post
Just ban leader classes. I hope you were joking.
Sounds like our DM who has already stated for our next campaign that things are gonna be a lot different. No SwordMages (he doesn't like them). Nothing from Eberron. Nothing from any of the dragon magazines (NO Painful Oath for my Avenger!). Oh, I won't get to play Avenger again anyways - he's ruling you can't play any class you've played before. (and nothing not in PHB1 and PHB2).
but back on topic - 4e still seems pretty lethal to me as well. We're in the tomb of horrors and we've had a character drop unconscious (zero hit points) probably once every encounter. One super scary moment when the whole party was trapped in a room filling with water and the very last skill check opened the only door/exit. Our DM had us fight an Ivy Heart but he changed its effects. Our barbarian went down, zero hit points, and was trapped in the Ivy Hearts crystal. Normally, when you kill the Ivy Heart, the character returns. Our DM made it not so. So now we're carrying around this crystal with our Barbs soul in it, trying to figure out a way to restore him.
Hopefully before the next encounter.
So there are lots of things as a DM you can do to make things lethal (or more lethal, as it were).
Have fun.
My opinion is, if your DM doesn't know how to strategize then it's going to seem easy to the players. After all the DM is only one person thinking, and the party has 5. 4E has really become a strategy game rather than a hack and slash of the old days. Even terrain has a major effect on combat, and even has a xp value associated with it.
If you have a strategic DM he can wipe out a party using even an easy set of monsters (as compared to the PC's level). However, is that the point of 4E? No. It's about fun. How fun is it for a player to watch the rest of the session after his PC is killed in the first battle?
Some DM's say, "my players are bored because they feel they are too safe". Sometimes it's enough to knock PC's unconscious, or stunned or dazed, to get the point across that they are in danger.
Some DM's treat their monsters as their PC, and take it personal when the players defeat them. Maybe it's time to have someone else DM.
If you have a strategic DM he can wipe out a party using even an easy set of monsters (as compared to the PC's level). However, is that the point of 4E? No. It's about fun. How fun is it for a player to watch the rest of the session after his PC is killed in the first battle?
Some DM's say, "my players are bored because they feel they are too safe". Sometimes it's enough to knock PC's unconscious, or stunned or dazed, to get the point across that they are in danger.
Some DM's treat their monsters as their PC, and take it personal when the players defeat them. Maybe it's time to have someone else DM.
Henry
Autoexreginated
4E games can be plenty difficult still. As I noted in another thread, I've seen PCs outright DIE in the first encounter of the game, and in one case the SURPRISE round of the first encounter.
If you want to increase difficulty though, Little Raven has a good list of advice. I will say that what it IS difficult to do, is make an encounter that will make the PCs scared enough to flee for their lives. Because of the way the graduated damage scale works for creatures, a monster would have to be a good eight to ten levels higher ( a full Tier higher) to do enough outright damage to just put the fear of the Gods into the players, on the average. What will happen is that they'll get whittled down, and about four or five rounds into the combat, realize they're taking far more damage than the monsters, and need to decide to flee. It's like the story about the frog being boiled alive because the stew-pot got very gradually warmer until it was too late. Being killed in one round isn't rare, but it's very uncommon.
If you want to increase difficulty though, Little Raven has a good list of advice. I will say that what it IS difficult to do, is make an encounter that will make the PCs scared enough to flee for their lives. Because of the way the graduated damage scale works for creatures, a monster would have to be a good eight to ten levels higher ( a full Tier higher) to do enough outright damage to just put the fear of the Gods into the players, on the average. What will happen is that they'll get whittled down, and about four or five rounds into the combat, realize they're taking far more damage than the monsters, and need to decide to flee. It's like the story about the frog being boiled alive because the stew-pot got very gradually warmer until it was too late.
Being killed in one round isn't rare, but it's very uncommon.
surfarcher
First Post
I think it's more accurate to say that characters have more resources from pulling allies back from the edge of death.
Last night I accidentally knocked the Cleric to -5hp with ongoing 5 fire damage pending, before she could save. Since she she was level 1 that is incredibly close to CDC for one hit.
The next character used heal to stabilize her and an action point and heal to immediately grant her save. That left her conscious with 1 hp. On her turn Healing Word and Second Wind brought her back to unbloodied.
Now what if I had focus fired on her instead of just getting a single lucky roll?? That was only one L+0 artillery leader that critted on her, you know. She just happened to be under one surge's worth of hp at the time.
In the end it was a good encounter because it made all the players sweat, even though it was only medium difficulty
Last night I accidentally knocked the Cleric to -5hp with ongoing 5 fire damage pending, before she could save. Since she she was level 1 that is incredibly close to CDC for one hit.
The next character used heal to stabilize her and an action point and heal to immediately grant her save. That left her conscious with 1 hp. On her turn Healing Word and Second Wind brought her back to unbloodied.
Now what if I had focus fired on her instead of just getting a single lucky roll?? That was only one L+0 artillery leader that critted on her, you know. She just happened to be under one surge's worth of hp at the time.
In the end it was a good encounter because it made all the players sweat, even though it was only medium difficulty
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