How to make 'being surrounded by enemy crossbowmen' deadlier?

[shilsen]

Hey Shilsen, no hard feelings I hope. I was in a grouchy mood at work when I posted my above reply.

None at all. I've seen a lot worse on these boards, and I always take the approach that getting upset because some stranger on a messageboard is rude to me would be silly, so I don't. And it's not as if you were rude, either. That came across as way less grouchy than you might have thought.

 

[Darklone]

Same here. I do recommend, of course, that when people try to inject real world flavor in combat (or elsewhere) they think it through and make enough changes. I find a single or limited change usually just leads to a lack of internal consistency, as one element in the game is more like the real world but everything else is not.

I often happen to meet people who try to inject "realism" into games but they have no clue about realism. Especially concerning swordfights. My favorite example: The "Dex to hit is more realistic" dudes. Yeah, decades ago I've been in that camp too.

Hey, you met him too!

And here I thought that guy was German.

G'ah, he thinks magic is more realistic than fighting ambi?

If anything the penaties are unrealistically harsh. Try it some time. Someone with 2 swords who doesn't know what they were doing is a match for someone with one sword who does. ...

Partially true. A good swordsman can easily beat someone around who uses two weapons and does not know what he's doing... but if the guy with two weapons knows what he's doing, there's only one thing to remember: RUN!

 

[UltimaGabe]

The only time that this PC tactic really bothers me is when the PCs just get cocky with it. I was playing in a (~5th level) game once where a PC went off on his own in the shadier part of town, and started asking some questions he shouldn't have asked. Next thing he knew, as he was walking into the bar, he felt a crossbow pressing against his (completely unarmored) back. Rather than take this guy seriously, the PC basically said something along the lines of, "Go for it."

Seriously, I don't think that sounds like a good attitude for any character in anything. I think the big issue, though, is that in D&D, PCs (in my experience, at least) never know when to surrender. They assume that every challenge thrown at them is a reasonable challenge (thanks to the oh-so-wonderful CR system), and they run in with swords a-blazing, and succeed because it WAS a reasonable challenge, or they assume it's a reasonable challenge and run in with swords a-blazing, and die because it's NOT a reasonable challenge. But of course no DM wants to kill his PCs without warning, so he can't just outright kill them, but at the same time, there's no way to convince the PCs that what they're up against is more than a reasonable challenge without killing them.

If the enemy is able to kill them in one hit, how do you show this to them without actually doing it? How do you convince them that what they're facing is incredibly deadly without them just taking any NPC ramblings as an adventure hook rather than a warning?

 

[udalrich]

If the enemy is able to kill them in one hit, how do you show this to them without actually doing it? How do you convince them that what they're facing is incredibly deadly without them just taking any NPC ramblings as an adventure hook rather than a warning?

I ran into this problem as a GM, even with a group that tended to want to talk rather than fight.

If the NPC steps up behind them without being seen, it's hard. Possibly ask for a knowledge (local) or sense motive check. "You recognize Tom, known as Death-Bringer to his friends. Nobody knows what his enemies call them, since that's not the sort of question you ask using Speak With Dead." (Successful knowledge check.) "The strangers voice exudes confidence, as if he knows who you are and isn't concerned by it." (Successful sense motive check).

If the PC's are trailing them, have the NPC's win a random encounter against something appropriate for the NPCs. When you tell a party of 4 5th-level PC's, "you come across the remains of 5 trolls and several ogres", the party should realize the other side isn't a "CR appropriate challenge" for them.

If the NPC steps out in front of the PCs and issues a challenge, include that fact that the NPC has more (or better looking) magic items than the average party member.

 

[Darklone]

Status quo campaigns.

 

[shilsen]

The only time that this PC tactic really bothers me is when the PCs just get cocky with it.

Why is that? Is cocky for some reason an inferior character trait? Some PCs are cocky, just like some people are.

I was playing in a (~5th level) game once where a PC went off on his own in the shadier part of town, and started asking some questions he shouldn't have asked. Next thing he knew, as he was walking into the bar, he felt a crossbow pressing against his (completely unarmored) back. Rather than take this guy seriously, the PC basically said something along the lines of, "Go for it."

Seriously, I don't think that sounds like a good attitude for any character in anything.

Perhaps. Depends on the character and the situation. In this case, what happened? Did the NPC take him down? If so, he learned not to be cocky. Did he beat up the NPC easily? In that case his cockiness was completely justified.

I think the big issue, though, is that in D&D, PCs (in my experience, at least) never know when to surrender. They assume that every challenge thrown at them is a reasonable challenge (thanks to the oh-so-wonderful CR system)

The only way they can assume that every challenge thrown at them is reasonable is if the DM doesn't know how to use CR. The DMG even says that for a 4-person party 15% of encounters should be an EL 1-4 higher than the party, and 5% should be EL 5+ higher than the party. That means 1 in 20 encounters should have a better than even chance of a TPK. If you use CR and EL exactly as written, your PCs should never assume every challenge thrown at them is a reasonable one.

, and they run in with swords a-blazing, and succeed because it WAS a reasonable challenge, or they assume it's a reasonable challenge and run in with swords a-blazing, and die because it's NOT a reasonable challenge. But of course no DM wants to kill his PCs without warning, so he can't just outright kill them, but at the same time, there's no way to convince the PCs that what they're up against is more than a reasonable challenge without killing them.

Sure there is. Just depends on the particular context. Have the enemy casually disarm the main fighter-type, or clearly focus on defense (Combat Expertise or fighting defensively) and still hit a PC with ease. Or cast a high-level spell that doesn't kill but seriously weakens the PCs, letting them know they're facing high level enemies. If there are NPC allies, obliterate one of them. There are lots of ways to show PCs they're in over their head without killing them.

If the enemy is able to kill them in one hit, how do you show this to them without actually doing it?

See above. And if PCs can be cocky, why shouldn't NPCs be cocky too? If the enemy is that superior to them, he can toy with them and make it clear he's doing so. Or smash an NPC ally. Or knock a PC down into negatives with one blow.

How do you convince them that what they're facing is incredibly deadly without them just taking any NPC ramblings as an adventure hook rather than a warning?

Two simple ways - one OOC and one IC. OOC (and I highly recommend this), talk to your players and tell them that they won't always face reasonable challenges. Some will be ludicrously easy, some will be just right, and some will be far too tough to survive. And back this up IC by having such encounters appear early in the campaign. Once the PCs have actually seen that you meant what you said, you won't have a problem. A big part of that, I think, is also making it clear that just because an NPC suggests something doesn't make it a good idea to follow.

To go back to your original example, here's how an equivalent situation went down in my game. The paladin, who's quite cocky about his abilities, went wandering around in a rough part of Sharn (this is the Eberron game in my sig) without his armor. Since he was 6th lvl at the time, he was a lot more powerful than most people around too, and he knew it. So he got mugged by four thugs, half of them not wearing armor either, two of which were 2nd lvl and two were 1st lvl. They beat the crap out of him and he woke up naked in a sack, about to be sold into slavery, and had to be rescued by his friends. He's still a little cocky, but he doesn't go wandering off alone if he can help it, and he's 14th lvl now.

In short, as people have said ad infinitum on this thread, if you're going to threaten a PC, threaten him. It's easy.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Nice post, Shilsen. I'll definitely consider some of the things you said. (I've tried to use some of what you said in the past, but none of it ever really seemed like it worked, felt forced, etc. Anyway, I'll just keep at it.) I honestly never read that guideline in the DMG, though, about how many encounters should be what EL- and I have to say, that's brilliant! I'll keep that in mind as well.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The PCs then recklessly attack. In response to their attempt, the crossbowmen fire, each PC targeted and hit by 3 bolts. But of course, this is DnD, and even the wizard can stand up to that.

My solution? Poisoned crossbows. If the emergency squad know they are going up against heroes, a dose of drow poison on the crossbows will help a lot and be worth the investment

 

[Plane Sailing]

Black Company d20 supposedly has ambush rules that assume nearly anyone can be hid hard and fast and taken out. I don't know the specifics.

Specifics:

Any time a character who has not yet acted takes damage during the surprise round, that character must make a massive damage save (DC 10+1 per 5 pts damage). Fail the save and hit points fall to 0 and disabled, fail the save by 6 or more and hit points fall to 0 and dying (aka -1 in D&D terms)

Cheers

 

[mvincent]

Conan must be a pretty high level barbarian (lots of HP). When the king's men burst in on him at the tavern with loaded crossbows pointed at him, he takes them seriously.

He does? I just assumed he wants to be taken captive long enough to learn the BBEG's master plan (or least get the plot hook)... and then unleash the whupass.