How to punish a metagamer?

[willardthor]

We have straight-up told him and he just doesn't believe that a fighter would have no idea about a spell. He thinks that he would "feel" the charm and know what the wizard did, even though that would seem to ruin the entire charm spell and what it is used for.

Two things here:

• Does a level 2 Fighter know about charm spells, and
• Can a charmed individual feel that he was charmed, after the charm wears off?

For the first part, it depends on the fighter's background, and the level of magic in your campaign setting. If wizards and magic is/are rare, and his background does not indicate that he has spent much time with wizards, then no way.

For the second part, I took a look at the Saving Throw section in the Player's Handbook 3.5 (page 176), which explains what happens when you succeed on a saving throw. I was hoping to find the same entry contained in the Psionic's Handbook 3.5 (page 62):

Failing a Saving Throw against Mind-Affecting Powers: If you fail your save, you are unaware that you have been affected by a power.

But, alas, it is not in the Player's Handbook. Strange, as I am sure that this issue is very old, since, as you say, knowing that you have been charmed completely ruins charm.

I would then say that, as always, the GM has the final say. Were I the GM, I would pick the ruling from the Psionics Handbook, and if the fighter player complains, I would tell him to put a sock in it.

Of course, the rest of the party might grow mistrustful of the wizard, knowing that if he does not get what he wants, he simply charms people into his will (I take it they saw the wizard cast the spell, and saw the fighter change his behaviour afterwards).

 

[Dingo333]

My issues with this:

Charm Person: as has been said, realizing you were charmed would ruin charm, so a failed saving throw would mean you are charmed and do not realize it. Now, if someone later said "that guy controlled you" that is another story

Loot: they were pipes, and the fighter would have no may of knowing unless a caster told him they were magical. Do you, the fighter, or anyone else in the group have a desire/ability to play the pipes? those who say no, do not get the pipes, those who say yes have a chance at them. It then falls to background and character personality

The Well: You knew it was magical, the rouge fell in trying to reach something (yes you could tell if the magic was the well or an item in said well) so you would have an idea the well is trapped magically, though not sure how. You knew the school was illusion, the rouge looked in, not hard to guess the illusion is sight based. The fighter has no idea the well is magic unless told. Has no idea the save type needed (fort for hallucinatory spores, ref for a specially constructed floor or will for an illusion). I would have had him make a perception check to see if he jumped(illusion or hallucination) in or fell(special floor) in or was pulled(some other magic force) in.

Controlling: Yes, it would be evil to control someone via an enchantment. Though not on the same level of evil as murder (do not confuse murder with capital punishment, CP is retributive after being tried and found guilty of a crime worthy of losing your life. if controling someone was worthy of CP, drug lords, gang leaders and extortionist would face it and not half a decade of jail time).

As for kicking him out, don't think of it like that, more of dissolving the group and reforming it without him being told about the new group.

 

[Stormonu]

Personally, I put charming your own party members as ranking right up there with the repulsiveness of rogues/thieves who steal from their own party members. Probably the only thing that reeks higher are those who commit party intracide.

If you have to charm your own party members to get along, why are the problem members part of your party? If I were one of the other party members and saw the wizard charm one of my own, I'd probably quit the group shortly thereafter - after all, what's to stop the wizard from later charming me if I argue with him about something, and with perhaps dire consequences ("Fred, just hold the dragon off for a few rounds more so we can get away - after all, we're good friends and you can always count on us coming back to resurrect you if something goes wrong...")

I don't think either side was in the right on this issue.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Two things here:

• Does a level 2 Fighter know about charm spells, and
• Can a charmed individual feel that he was charmed, after the charm wears off?

For the first part, it depends on the fighter's background, and the level of magic in your campaign setting. If wizards and magic is/are rare, and his background does not indicate that he has spent much time with wizards, then no way.

he's adventuring with a wizard who's got it memorized. The odds are pretty good that he's seen it a few times before he's targeted by it.
Wizards enchanting and compelling people's behavior would be standard stories unless you're playing in a campaign where magic is basically unknown.

It takes very little brain power to go from
"The wizard cast a spell that had no apparent affect and then I felt completely different and opted to give up the treasure that I really, really wanted" to realising that you were probably enspelled.

(Less obvious in other situations)

For the second part, I took a look at the Saving Throw section in the Player's Handbook 3.5 (page 176), which explains what happens when you succeed on a saving throw. I was hoping to find the same entry contained in the Psionic's Handbook 3.5 (page 62):

I never had that much to do with psionics but it was sufficiently different from magic in terms of class design that it may well have been a deliberate decision to give that as a benefit compared to magic.

In any case if you're bringing 3.5 in I introduce into evidence the introductory solo adventure from the red box D&D boxed set where the completely inexperienced fighter realised that he had been charmed by Bargle

But, alas, it is not in the Player's Handbook. Strange, as I am sure that this issue is very old, since, as you say, knowing that you have been charmed completely ruins charm.

It's not always clear that a charm has happened. Used subtly or backed up with sufficient roleplaying or use of diplomacy you can get away with it. (Still and silent spell help your chances as well)

but at worst you get 1 hour per level to get what you need out of the charm. I'd hardly call that completely ruined. It does actually mean that social skills stay relevant rather than it being easy to use magic to do everything.

I would then say that, as always, the GM has the final say. Were I the GM, I would pick the ruling from the Psionics Handbook, and if the fighter player complains, I would tell him to put a sock in it.

If pathfinder intended you not to realise that you'd been enspelled _after_ the duration of the spell wore off don't you think they'd have mentioned it?

considering that you'd remember how you felt before the spell and after the spell wears off you will normally go back to feeling that way how do you think you'd explain the couple of hours when you are under the influence of the spell?

Of course, the rest of the party might grow mistrustful of the wizard, knowing that if he does not get what he wants, he simply charms people into his will (I take it they saw the wizard cast the spell, and saw the fighter change his behaviour afterwards).

 

[gamerprinter]

he's adventuring with a wizard who's got it memorized. The odds are pretty good that he's seen it a few times before he's targeted by it.

I've watched a physician perform a field surgery during an emergency - does that mean I can do field surgery (not being a doctor) since I watched him do one? Answer - no way. Just because a fighter witnesses a wizard casting any spell, doesn't mean the fighter has an expectation of knowing what is going on in any way regarding spells.

Occupationally there is little similarity between a wizard and a fighter. Just because a wizard is around a fighter, doesn't mean either one can do the other's job in a pinch, nor have any real idea what is going on with the other.

Your logic is illogical.

Only if the fighter has any ranks in spellcraft, would there even be a chance.

 

[TarionzCousin]

If he doesn't care that his actions make everyone else unhappy, you will never be able to trust him to consider everyone's fun. Kick him out.

He even went so far as to run off by himself into a portal when the oracle and the wizard had NO spells left. He just got bored and decided to run off.

Hey look: He went to the Nine Hells and never came back.

 

[Mad Hamish]

I've watched a physician perform a field surgery during an emergency - does that mean I can do field surgery (not being a doctor) since I watched him do one? Answer - no way. Just because a fighter witnesses a wizard casting any spell, doesn't mean the fighter has an expectation of knowing what is going on in any way regarding spells.

Occupationally there is little similarity between a wizard and a fighter. Just because a wizard is around a fighter, doesn't mean either one can do the other's job in a pinch, nor have any real idea what is going on with the other.

Your logic is illogical.

Only if the fighter has any ranks in spellcraft, would there even be a chance.

So despite having seen fireballs w fighter couldn't guess that a scorched area full of bodies could have been caused by a fire spell?

A fighter having seen slow couldn't guess that if he's slowed that he's under the effect of a slow spell?

A LG fighter who was charmed by a CE wizard he knows and hates couldn't be suspicious that he'd been affected by a spell (after the duration runs out) if he'd been charmed and found himself liking him for 5 hours?

Obviously somebody without spellcraft isn't going to get all the information that a person with spellcraft (or possibly knowledge arcana) will but there is a level of basic information that should be available for things smarter than rocks.

 

[gamerprinter]

Certainly he could - after the fact. But when a wizard is casting, the fighter is not going to know what is going on, and that's what this discussion is all about. After he survives a fireball, he knows it was a fireball cast, but not before it was cast, not unless he had ranks in spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana.

If you don't have the skill ranks or are not a non-caster of the spell cast, the PC in question is "no smarter than a rock". If you don't have the appropriate skill ranks in stealth you can't perfrom stealth, same with knowledge arcana and spellcraft. No skills, then no way to recognize spells being cast, until after you see the effects of the spell.

Charm spells are a bit different. If you fail your save you won't know you're enchanted until the spell expires. If you do save, you won't know that an attempt to charm you has occurred.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Certainly he could - after the fact. But when a wizard is casting, the fighter is not going to know what is going on, and that's what this discussion is all about. After he survives a fireball, he knows it was a fireball cast, but not before it was cast, not unless he had ranks in spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana.

If you don't have the skill ranks or are not a non-caster of the spell cast, the PC in question is "no smarter than a rock". If you don't have the appropriate skill ranks in stealth you can't perfrom stealth, same with knowledge arcana and spellcraft. No skills, then no way to recognize spells being cast, until after you see the effects of the spell.

Charm spells are a bit different. If you fail your save you won't know you're enchanted until the spell expires. If you do save, you won't know that an attempt to charm you has occurred.

here's the bit from the original post
" He refused to hand it over and the wizard cast a charm spell on him. Well, as soon as the fighter heard that the wizard had charmed him he waited until we had rested for the night and said that he was going to coup de grace the wizard during his watch. "

that's what's being discussed, not identifying the spell when it is cast.

 

[gamerprinter]

here's the bit from the original post
" He refused to hand it over and the wizard cast a charm spell on him. Well, as soon as the fighter heard that the wizard had charmed him he waited until we had rested for the night and said that he was going to coup de grace the wizard during his watch. "

that's what's being discussed, not identifying the spell when it is cast.

As I said, Charm spells work differently, unless the fighter knows a charm spell was cast (as in someone told him it happened) there is no way for him to know it happened. Whether he makes his saving throw or not will not let him know that it happened at all. While he is charmed, he won't know he's charmed. And when its over he won't know it happened.

If the bad guy force him to kill all his companions, when the charm is over he might be aware that something happened. However, since the charm is being caused by a fellow party member, unless one of the other PC's let's him know it happened. He won't know the difference - as if nothing happened at all. This only applies to spells like Charm, not spells with obvious physical effects like burnt bodies from a Fireball. Charm has no obvious physical effect that the Fighter can recognize before nor after the fact.