Yeah the game doesn’t fall apart until after 15th but you can see the stress on it as early as 7th or 8th and 9th level full casters already break away from the mold of most fantasy casters.
D&D (2024) How to reign in full casters for 1D&D? Maybe remove 6th to 9th level spells as a Variant rule.
- Thread starter Horwath
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Undrave
Legend
I added it as an edit so it probably didn't work properly.
6th to 9th spell should just be treated like Magic Items. You can't learn them unless you find them or someone willing to teach you. You could still 'upcast' your other spells.
Now everybody's dependant on the DM
I think the solution is right there. The latest D&D movie taught me that no one gives for grant high level spells: nobody talked about "training the wizard till discover the raise spell" or "let's search for a high level wizard". The single biggest source of imbalance is: you can learn spells during the level up according to your maximum spell slot avalabilty. Let casters automatically learn till 5th spell level, and the DM will give them spell or masters to learn those rare high level spells. Naturally, before a level up, players and DM could discuss on what spells above the 5th they wish to learn, so the DM can give them the way to learn them or not.
kigmatzomat
Hero
That's less than half an answer at best. Clerics get their spells from their gods and warlocks from a patron. They have an eternal trainer baked in where "go find someone else" makes no sense. The assumption would be that they are already worthy of the spells. (And if you are using Milestone leveling, that should be baked into the plot)
And if the patron/God finds the caster unworthy of higher level magics, force them to multiclass (see thread "I think we can all agree multiclassing is broken....")
The other side are Sorcerers who "awaken" their spells from their bloodline and bards, who figure spells out from everything they encounter while leveling. Magic Secrets is pretty much "decode other classes spells on your own" except now you need a teacher for your own class spells? Or your draconic heritage which lets you grow wings falls down on mastering spells? That seems nonsensical.
Imo with wizards, the level-up spells are fine, it's all the rest that should be hard to get. The "wizard with a book of all spells" is the real pain point.
I say this as a player with Ritual Caster (Wizard). We don't have a wizard and I have spent 2 levels searching for Contact Other Plane, and I am fine with it. (Mildly irked if I don't find it this level though)
And if the patron/God finds the caster unworthy of higher level magics, force them to multiclass (see thread "I think we can all agree multiclassing is broken....")
The other side are Sorcerers who "awaken" their spells from their bloodline and bards, who figure spells out from everything they encounter while leveling. Magic Secrets is pretty much "decode other classes spells on your own" except now you need a teacher for your own class spells? Or your draconic heritage which lets you grow wings falls down on mastering spells? That seems nonsensical.
Imo with wizards, the level-up spells are fine, it's all the rest that should be hard to get. The "wizard with a book of all spells" is the real pain point.
I say this as a player with Ritual Caster (Wizard). We don't have a wizard and I have spent 2 levels searching for Contact Other Plane, and I am fine with it. (Mildly irked if I don't find it this level though)
CreamCloud0
One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
i mean i think you can find a way for it to make sense with most classes:
clerics and warlocks? sure you technically know that spell but your body hasn't been prepared for that level of divine/unholy channeling, you need to find a temple or cult that knows the proper rites and ceremonies to let you perform X or Y spell, and instead of spending gold for the special spell-scribing inks it's to properly fund the ceremony with special incenses and your ceremonial robes
sorcerers? sure they get some spells naturally but learning from someone else is going to be easier that figuring it out from scratch by yourself, they're always going to want to learn more if they have the opportunity
bards? it's all in the tone you look at magical secrets with, it's not "oh you worked out two spells by yourself? but what about all the others, if you can do it for two you can do the rest of em hurry up" but more "oh wow you figured this all out by yourself? just from watching people use it! i mean copying existing magic isn't as difficult as discovering new magic wholesale but man that's still impressive"
druids, rangers and paladins? sure they'll need to trade notes with others of their kind to learn new spells, they might get their magic from external forces but it's not as direct a connection clerics or warlocks
simply going back to vancian casting would solve a lot of the problems complained about in this thread & others.
Undrave
Legend
Except that Vancian casting sucks.
That’s the thing way back when playing a full caster was hard. The easier we made it the more and more it stepped in the non casters.
It didn't exist in a vacuum and the system still carries elements devoted to supporting it... Which was why there were so many scrolls along with wands and other magic items carrying various low level spells a caster could rely on after getting them (usually through the gm in some way). There are still a bunch of them in the magic items tables for similar reasons to why there are so many magic swords compared to maces daggers and so on.
Again this is a real issue. A staff of fire or wand of lightning bolt each takes a single attunement slot but can change how many “not damage but I win” spells the wizard can use
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