How to stop runners?

[darjr]

oh and there are other ways that a pc can tell that there are factions. the hobgoblin prisoners is one way

and the ogre knows the sound of coins in a pouch

 

[Hautamaki]

I know I've said it before, and I've see several other people mention it, but none of the pregen speaks any of the languages spoken by any of the monsters. Comprehend Languages might let you understand what they are saying, but the party has no way of actually asking any questions. That will make figuring out the political situation very difficult if not impossible. It would be a great idea if the playtest wasn't built in such a way to prohibit it.



I don't want level 1 characters to be superheroes. I do want them to be heroes with lots of room to grow, and maybe someday with a lot of work and luck they could become superheroes. If I wanted to Bob the Ratcatcher or Fred the Tailor, who has to run in terror from a handful of the weakest humanoids in existence, I'd go play an old edition of WFRP. A level 1 hero should be a cut above a common guard, otherwise there would be no need for the PCs, or the players should be playing the guards instead.

Alright well if there truly is no way to interract with the monsters apart from hitting them with weapons and spells, that IS a design flaw and it seriously compromises a lot of the genius of the Caves of Chaos and the whole Keep on the Borderlands module. 3rd level PCs should be able to treat it as an action game and just go in swords flashing and spells blazing, but the option for 1st level PCs to win through cleverness, subterfuge, good roleplaying, etc, needs to be there too.

Which brings me to my next point: Heroic is as Heroic does. Not all Heroes have to be Action Heroes. I mean if you want to play action heroes, great, advance the PCs a level or 2 so they have the firepower to take out the caves with a frontal assault. But outsmarting the monsters can be a fun way to play too.

 

[tlantl]

In these situations it might be a good idea to have someone with a missile weapon readied with the stated intent to shoot anything that starts to run for help.


You'd think that amongst several dozen monsters of reasonable intelligence at least one could speak common. This situation would never arise in one of my games since in every edition of D&D I ever played all of the monsters can speak at least a little bit of the common tongue.

It is a failing of the playtest that the characters can't speak any of the languages of the monsters in the module though. How are the players supposed to use charm person on someone they can't communicate with. Comprehend languages is a first level spell in at least three editions of the game why couldn't that spell have been available?

I'm glad the next batch of playtest documents will have some character creation rules so I can figure out how they put together these characters so I can turn them into something more useful.

 

[IronWolf]

I know I've said it before, and I've see several other people mention it, but none of the pregen speaks any of the languages spoken by any of the monsters. Comprehend Languages might let you understand what they are saying, but the party has no way of actually asking any questions. That will make figuring out the political situation very difficult if not impossible. It would be a great idea if the playtest wasn't built in such a way to prohibit it.

The playtest wasn't built to prohibit it. With as many kobolds as there were it would have been easy to say that a few of the kobolds had learned broken common and been able to communicate. These are decisions and judgments the DM is free to make. Adapt and tweak things.

It is going to take some time for DMs to learn this flexibility if they are used to the rules telling them exactly what they can and cannot do. And it will be good if upon release of this version there is a good chunk of material devoted to getting DMs comfortable with this style.

If I had been running for your party and your party had made genuine efforts to communicate with the kobolds I would likely have had a few give confused quizzical looks, hesitate and then send back for another kobold who did know common (or enough common to communicate).

Actions like this by the DM are not prohibited. It is just a style that needs learned as one shrugs off the restrictions that are associated with rules trying to cover every single situation.

 

[WizarDru]

A couple of thoughts.

First, let's quote the actual "Caves of Chaos" module write-up:

In return, though, the free-form nature of this adventure can get the PCs into trouble quickly. The ravine is full of areas boasting far more monsters than a typical group of 1st-level adventurers can handle. Ten orcs can be big trouble for the party, especially when those orcs can give as good as they get. Pile on another ten, and the adventurers careers might very well end abruptly. The players need to know that some places hold too many monsters for their characters to defeat all at once. A nonplayer character (NPC) could warn the party that the caves house tribes of humanoids, many at least fifty warriors strong, or you can describe evidence of the passage of many individuals through the area as the party draws near. If all else fails, just tell the players up fron thta they need to watch their step.

Emphasis mine. There is also nearly a page and a half of details on what to do if the party gets in over their head through no fault of their own. I'm not really sure why your DM was so certain that cave 'A' was the easiest cave. The goblin cave is the same difficulty, perhaps easier. The Ogre cave would have been dangerous (though entirely doable, as my group beat him after fighting four groups of goblins).

Either way, the module is VERY CLEAR that this module is more like Temple of Elemental Evil than Keep on the Shadowfell.

The module also details about three to four pages of variations and changes the DM could make if he wanted to, to retool the character of the module, the nature of the caves or the reasons for the players being there. In my case, the players were there to rescue a kidnapped noble.

As far as the players being unable to speak to the groups there...some of them, that's true. But the hobgoblins, bugbears, cultists and others speak common unambiguously in the module (even posting signs in common). Nowhere does it say these particular goblins and kobolds do not, though by the bestiary, there is no mention. Of course, both clerics have the Diplomacy skill, which should allow for some form of negotiation, regardless of a common tongue. It's clear several tribes here interact, regardless of shared language....there's no reason the players couldn't do so. Given that the Ogre doesn't have multiple languages listed, he clearly has worked out deals without a shared tongue OR he and the goblins speak common, at the least.

The module may or may not have faults, but the layout and interactions do not appear to be things I would list among them. These were design intents, pure and simple. It sound more to me like the OP's DM didn't read the module fully or didn't make his party aware of the threat they faced.

 

[Christian]

How are the players supposed to use charm person on someone they can't communicate with. Comprehend languages is a first level spell in at least three editions of the game why couldn't that spell have been available?

It's in the wizard's spellbook, as a matter of fact.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I think it's reasonable to be able to try to stop runners with a bow, thrown weapon, or spell. But, to do this, a PC must be able to act during an opponents action. I'm not in the playtest, but my impression is that this option is not included in the rules. (Someone tell me if this is right or not)

I've heard complaints in previous editions that interrupt mechanics make combat too long and complicated, but this is exactly the problem you run into if you leave them out. Personally, I think such mechanics are needed.

That said, I think running for help is an eminently reasonable thing to do, and intelligent enemies should attempt to do it any time it makes sense.

 

[Hautamaki]

A couple of thoughts.

First, let's quote the actual "Caves of Chaos" module write-up:


Emphasis mine. There is also nearly a page and a half of details on what to do if the party gets in over their head through no fault of their own. I'm not really sure why your DM was so certain that cave 'A' was the easiest cave. The goblin cave is the same difficulty, perhaps easier. The Ogre cave would have been dangerous (though entirely doable, as my group beat him after fighting four groups of goblins).

Either way, the module is VERY CLEAR that this module is more like Temple of Elemental Evil than Keep on the Shadowfell.

The module also details about three to four pages of variations and changes the DM could make if he wanted to, to retool the character of the module, the nature of the caves or the reasons for the players being there. In my case, the players were there to rescue a kidnapped noble.

As far as the players being unable to speak to the groups there...some of them, that's true. But the hobgoblins, bugbears, cultists and others speak common unambiguously in the module (even posting signs in common). Nowhere does it say these particular goblins and kobolds do not, though by the bestiary, there is no mention. Of course, both clerics have the Diplomacy skill, which should allow for some form of negotiation, regardless of a common tongue. It's clear several tribes here interact, regardless of shared language....there's no reason the players couldn't do so. Given that the Ogre doesn't have multiple languages listed, he clearly has worked out deals without a shared tongue OR he and the goblins speak common, at the least.

The module may or may not have faults, but the layout and interactions do not appear to be things I would list among them. These were design intents, pure and simple. It sound more to me like the OP's DM didn't read the module fully or didn't make his party aware of the threat they faced.

The Goblin cave is easily one of the hardest, considering that the first thing the goblins will do is call for hobgoblin reinforcements, half of which are likely to go around outside and block off the escape route. The goblins are also likely to bribe the ogre into action. The kobold cave probably is the easiest since the kobolds are the least likely to receive outside help. The owlbear cave is also relatively easy though of course the owlbear can do enough sudden damage to take out a level 1 character almost instantly. The ogre cave is also easy if the DM doesn't have the goblins interfere but I considered the goblins to be regular customers and allies of the ogre.

 

[Hautamaki]

I think it's reasonable to be able to try to stop runners with a bow, thrown weapon, or spell. But, to do this, a PC must be able to act during an opponents action. I'm not in the playtest, but my impression is that this option is not included in the rules. (Someone tell me if this is right or not)

I've heard complaints in previous editions that interrupt mechanics make combat too long and complicated, but this is exactly the problem you run into if you leave them out. Personally, I think such mechanics are needed.

That said, I think running for help is an eminently reasonable thing to do, and intelligent enemies should attempt to do it any time it makes sense.

Agreed. I don't think it ought to slow down combat too much for the PC to say "I want to shoot my bow at that goblin before he gets away". To disallow that action based on the rules saying that interrupt actions are not allowed is dissociative and annoying. If you can't give a player an in-game-world reason for his character not being allowed to shoot at or throw a weapon at a fleeing enemy imo he's going to be annoyed, or at the very least taken out of the imaginary world and thrust firmly back into his seat at gaming table with a character sheet, some miniatures, and some dice.

 

[darjr]

In my latest playtest when some of the goblins ran for help, the cleric just newly understanding that there were no AoP's, said "I run after him?" almost like he was in disbelief that he could. The other goblins then chased him down but he managed to down the first runners before they got away.

Not for long though. I had one player downed and had the goblins begin to drag him away when the other players went after him and then ran smack into the hobgoblins. A tpk then ensued. I had them wake up in the Prison of the hobgoblins with 1 hit point apiece. That's when they went all sneaky and actually managed to sneak out and get away.