How tough is City of the Spider Queen?

[Iron_Chef]

I think I should just step in as DM and fix this thing before it gets out of hand. Drastically shorten the CoTSQ, lower the challenge level of the main bad guys, cut out all the lame uber-monsters and insert some freakin RPing logic into it so it makes sense in our campaign instead of feeling lame and tacked-on. Something I didn't want to have to do, but appears I'll have to since the DM doesn't get the point. I'll discuss this with the other players. Bitching and moaning about how pathetic it is here doesn't do much good, you're right, but it sure is nice to vent outside my group so I can think straight without emotion getting in the way of my arguments.

Kiriansalee makes for a rotten villain, though. How does an insane demigod kill Orcus? Maybe I can make her a pawn of Cyric (not my favorite evil deity, either, by any stretch---I thought the whole Cyric ascension/Time of Troubles was beyond pathetic) but at least there is more of a connection there in our campaign (we've had trouble with Cyricist terror cells before, hiding behind demon god cult fronts seeking to halt, destroy or impair the reconstruction of Zhentil Keep).

If we can plane shift or teleport to Maerimydra from Szith Morcane, that cuts out all of chapter 2 (the worst part, which serves only to drag things out with endless non-plot central fights). Once in Maerimydra, we briefly investgate, ally with Kurgoth Hellspawn and his army and ultimately recover the Rod after a climactic end battle in the castle/temple (not fighting hordes of 20th level and CR 18 foes as written, mind you). Then we kill Kurgoth and his army falls apart. Then everything is left in Chaos and we split back to Zhentil Keep as heroes, all within 1-3 game sessions, tops.

 

[rounser]

Very, very simple question:

Why can't WotC write anything anywhere near as good in terms of depth and scope as what Bioware produces? Why doesn't the paper and pencil game have something on the level of Baldur's Gate II or Planescape: Torment? Who or what is holding it back? Page count? Management? Designers? Consumer buying habits ("We like dungeon crawls and drow and dragons!!!!111!!!11!")? Development money?

Why do RttToEE, Night Below and CotSQ resemble Diablo more than they do these games, raising the level of irony involved to ridiculous levels? (Bioware attempting to portray the depth of a pnp game, whereas we have WotC apparently trying to dumb down the pnp game to the meatgrinder level of Diablo-like computer games, which it will never do as well as Everquest or Diablo, and is effectively digging the grave for it's modules - and losing D&D players through boredom - in attempting to do so.)

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Iron_Chef:

We'll have to disagree here. I think CoTSQ is pure junk; you think it's great. Any module that forces the players to save the world, traps them in an area and then railroads them through a meatgrinder with little opportunity for roleplaying other thinking of a clever one-liner while hacking-n-slashing, is a shining example of what's wrong with adventure design and D&D in particular. "The world's most popular RPG" should have official support for more intelligent, RP-oriented styles of play both in the rulebooks and adventures, not the constant focus on video game power-ups that plague 3e game design. None of the official adventures are particularly clever or exciting, just "back to the dungeon" meatgrinders any hack could write. They're not even good dungeon crawls like back in 1e. Just souped-up "extreme" carbon copies with a seeming target audience of 13 year old boys in mind; horrible art in most cases, too. Drives me nuts.

Preach it brother!! I have felt this way for years, and it is a viable opinion based on the adventure products WotC has released thusfar for 3E. No one is saying that people CANNOT enjoy one-dimenstional hack-n-slash dungeoncrawls, but what about those of us who want something different out of D&D- namely more RP-oriented adventures? Everything from WotC seems to be a Diablo-clone now, and that grows tiresome VERY quickly. WotC, challenge our brains, not just our dice-rolling and min/maxing skills!

 

[gfunk]

We'll have to disagree here. I think CoTSQ is pure junk; you think it's great. Any module that forces the players to save the world, traps them in an area and then railroads them through a meatgrinder with little opportunity for roleplaying other thinking of a clever one-liner while hacking-n-slashing, is a shining example of what's wrong with adventure design and D&D in particular.

Another one of my favorite modules is the Freeport series by Green Ronin and the last of the Trilogy "Maddness in Freeport" is ranked very highly on ENWorld. There is quite a lot of role playing involved however, it all boils down to, "You have x number of days to prevent something very, very bad from happening and if you don't then the world ends." Sure there's some "role-playing" involved, but in the end that's the plot.

This is quintessential fantasy in action! There are numerous other systems that focus on role-playing, I believe White Wolf was mentioned. Why don't you switch to Vampire or Wraith as both games seem to mesh better with your desired style of play.

We can't just "go find another group or DM" as you suggest. The option is to play or not to play, to scrap the campaign or continue on. It sucks to throw in the towel at 11th level after all the work I've put in to building my PC, complete with detailed family history, resulting mental and emotional states, etc., slow building of personal and business relationships, etc.

As a big fan of character development myself, I can see your dilemma. But I find it very hard to believe that you are not deriving some fun out of the whole affair. Why the hell would you just torture yourself otherwise?

1. "never worship any god because I will use your faith to railroad you. same goes for organizations; don't join them either"

2. "never bother to build intricate personal or fiscal relationships because they can be taken away at a moment's notice without warning."

3. "never do anything that doesn't focus on making you a combat monster with no ties to the world around you or your character will suck and you will die screaming in an endless dungeon crawl mega-meatgrinder."

1. Uh, oh. There's that term again, railroad. Adventures are, by definition railroading you. They put you into a problem that you have to solve within a given set of paramters. It sounds like you would be happier playing a 11th level commoner as long as you could do what you wanted.

2. As in life!! When you gain fame (infamy) for yourself, then you can expect to draw the ire of others.

3. Well, it's already pretty clear you hate character optimization (E.g min/maxing).

We ran through this adventure and had the following interesting role-playing experiences:

1. Our characters had made friends with an enclave of Desmodu who lived in the Underdark. We knew that it was a dangerous place so we role-played with their society and got them to 'donate' a couple of scouts. Their 120 ft Blindsight and local knowledge went a looong way in simplifying encounters for us.

2. We negotiated with several factions in Maerimydra to try and get their help in overthrowing Irae T'ssaren. We had some luck with drow worshippers of Vhaerun but our parlay with Hellspawn kind of backfired .

3. After destroying the inhabitants of the Temple, my PC (an alienist) requesitioned the Temple for herself and decided to complete the Great Revenance after all! This led to some awesome role-playing opportunities and inter-party conflict.

It sounds like your DM has one style and you prefer another. The styles do not mesh.

I mean, let's be frank, most DMs would love to have a player like you. When I DM, I love when my players take the initiative by pulling a fast one on me or doing something unorthodox. You can treate CotSQ as a flowchart or as a dynamic adventure. I'm truly sorry that your DM has trapped you in the former.

 

[Angcuru]

Do not doubt the Gfunk, his story hour is of the utmost awesomness, since it's based on this module. Read it....now...go ahead....don't be afraid....Entropy won't bite you.....

 

[rounser]

A good DM can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I had a ball in a Rifts campaign, but still wouldn't give props to the game designers for anything but their implied setting material...

 

[El Ravager]

This thread may have been started to complain about the module, but the more I responses I read the more interested I am in the module. Sounds like the module itself isn't that bad (actually, it sounds pretty cool to me) but that your DM is handling it poorly. I think he should have waited until you were at a more appropriate power level before he started you on it. It also sounds like there is plenty of roleplaying opprotunities in the module that your DM is not allowing you to fully exploit.

On the other hand it seems that your additude is that you do not like it no matter what. It actually reminds me of a recent KotD strip....

Anyway, I hope you and your group are able to make the best of things so that everyone involved is happy.

 

[Pants]

Pure uninspired hack-n-slash that is practically no fun at all, because instead of CHOOSING to brave Acererak's Tomb of Horrors or some such peril (knowing you can quit whenever you like in search of easier loot), you are railroaded into an endless SAVE THE WORLD meatgrinder with no hope of escape.

...but the DM seems opposed to the idea.

We don't care about doing this adventure at all and just want to leave, but of course, we've been railroaded into it....

The DM doesn't believe in giving us full XP for finding ways around killing our opponents....

First, the DM complains about how we're advancing too fast, then he puts us through a total hackfest and jacks us on the XP.
Don't get me wrong, I love my DM, .... but he's lost his mind.

...and inflicting in-game penalties on us for dragging our feet

Far be it from me to make assumptions, but it really sounds like the problem is your DM. It also sounds like your DM prefers a vastly different playing style.

Everytime I step in to substitute DM, he complains the adventures require too much thinking and he lets everyone else do all the brain work.

You should probably have a talk with your DM and explain to him two things 1) This module just isn't our style and/or 2) Could you try to award us for more unconventional thinking? RPing your way through 90% of the module should get you some good XP awards, but then again...

 

[Iron_Chef]

The DM must have at least one big fight per session or he gets bored. Although I enjoy sessions where it's all RP and hardly any dice are rolled, I recognize that these will be few and far between. I'm okay with one big fight per session, maybe two. Our sessions are around 6-8 hours each, so that seems reasonable. While I'm a RP-junkie, the other player (DM's brother) is a puzzle solving junkie and unless he gets something complicated to keep his brain active and engaged, he turns into an idiot and starts making obnoxious noises and dumb comments, when he can be bothered to even focus on what's hapening at all instead of talking about Morrowind or zombie movies or something else irrelevant. He also enjoys big fights, but pretty much sucks at RPing, not that he doesn't make some attempt at it, but never consistently. The kid is an absolute genius at solving puzzles, riddles, figuring out trap mechanics, and coming up with the most diabolical ways to screw over our enemies (from as few as one guy to an entire city full). As long as we can keep him engaged, he's a rtemendous asset. His brain is extremely sharp when it comes to the above. When I DMed and he said he was gonna be a rogue, I tailor made the first few adventures to show off his abilities and he amazed me and his brother doing things we could never pull off. His brother, the DM, just went to sleep and let him figure out everything while his character slept in the "safe" corner of the dungeon! LOL, his character hates dungeons and traps and yet whe he DMs, he runs a major dungeon crawl that his character would never go on in a million years? Not to say that he didn't RP his character correctly; his character dragged his feet and complained worse than any of us, and then we get punished for listening to his character's advice---who's supposed to be our spiritual advisor!

The DM likes RPing (he's great at winging it) but is awful at traps and puzzles (I'm good at designing them but not so great at figuring them out), but he is a combat junkie. He starts us off on every campaign with wonderful RPing opportunities and fun battles... then EVERY TIME, when we get to around 9th/10th level, he BLOWS IT by running an epic save the world dungeon crawl railroad, completely killing the campaign we've all worked so hard for; often times, he's even the one that pulls the plug, sying he doesn't have time for it anymore. He's not used to running games at these levels of play and has a hard time figuring out appropriate challenges. Normally, he goofs up and kills one or more characters by overestimating our abilities to handle threats. What can we do?

I try to make his life easier by making up tons of stuff (whether he asks me or not), including ENTIRE CITIES with every building numbered and detailed, and he uses maybe 10% and takes us away from the location he asked me to write for him and it's never used again! WTF? It's gotten to the point where I refuse to do anything more, because he doesn't use them to their full potential. He's been made aware of my feelings in this regard, and yet he still screws me over and makes me waste days/weeks of my life designing stuff for nothing. I'd DM, but he can't play worth a damn, LOL, and I prefer not to DM long-term. What can I do? He's my best friend and we've gamed together forever.

I'm gonna talk to him again about CotSQ. He is so stingy with XP and treasure and then wonders why we can't fight tough monsters when most of us don't even have a +1 weapon at 9th level, LOL. Then, we complain, and he hands out like 5,000gp each and a couple nifty magic items each but throws us into a meatgrinder still woefully unprepared. *sigh* Why must all our campaigns self-destruct at around 10th level? Is it D&D's fault? The system really does seem to break down at high levels of play (it always did, even if 3e is a little better at maintaining balance).

 

[gfunk]

The system really does seem to break down at high levels of play (it always did, even if 3e is a little better at maintaining balance).

Though you may be right from a game mechanics perspective, I've found that the role-playing opportunities are far more satisfying at higher levels.