How was the civil war not about slavery?

[Elf Witch]

Biased? How?



Fought and died under a flag that was flown in representation of a group of people that desperately wanted to promote the cause of slavery. And many groups after the Civil War used it as a symbol of that. Yeah, that doesn't mean everyone that wants to fly the flag is a racist, but why would you be proud of a symbol used to promote it?



The sedition was primarily for the cause of slavery.

I'm really trying not to Godwin the thread, but symbols have power and other movements have used symbols that have taken on a certain meaning and I don't think that most people would take to kindly to people using that symbol for something and saying, "Oh, but I'm not like those other people that used this symbol."

Biased in the fact that he often sees racism when in fact things are not racist. I think he lets his emotions color things.

Again it seems to be that you really didn't learn your American history all you can see is slavery is bad so the south fighting to be allowed to self determine their fate is also bad. It is a very simplistic way of looking at history.

Do you understand that just freeing the slaves would have hurt the southern economy very badly and that a lot of the people calling for the end of it were not doing it out of the nobility of their hearts but because they wanted a economic advantage.

As Oryan pointed out most of the men who fought for the north were not doing it to free slaves but to keep the US together.

All lot of Southerners who fought for the south did not own slaves my great grandfather and his family fought for what they viewed as their homeland if the southern economy was destroyed so would his family and their business. In his journal he talks about listening to his father and his father's friends talking late into the night about what would happen if the slaves were freed. How if the wealthy plantations folded then so would all the other businesses.

There are a lot of symbols that people react badly to I am Wiccan and so many Christians view the pentagram as a sign of evil and of Satan but that is not what it represented to me.

The burning cross is a huge symbol of hate but a cross is also a symbol for millions of Christians as a sign of Gods love.

I personally find the black panther fist symbol to be one of racism. A lot of the panthers preached hate and violence against whites. But I don't think every black person who wears it or displays it is racist.

Like I said to a lot of Southerners especially in the 60s and 70s the flag had nothing to do with racism but represented rebellion against Washington and the Vietnam War. There was a reason the Dukes of Hazzard car had the flag painted on top because they were good ole boys doing the best they can against the man. Racism was never ever part of that show.

 

[Elf Witch]

On Southerners of the era: as a black dude from Louisiana living in Texas, I think I can safely say that there were people back then who were not racist yet who fought for the Confederates. However, beyond a personal display within one's home in honor of such service, I really can't get behind displaying the Stars & Bars. I honestly think the Germans had the right idea of outlawing public display of the symbolism of Nazi Germany, though such laws would not be legal here in the USA.

On Northerners of the era: people forget that Lincoln was no real fan of black people himself- his primary interest was the USA as an ongoing concern, and he recognized the moral bankruptcy of "that Southern institution." He had originally proposed to buy all the slaves in the South and send them to Africa (basically to Liberia), reasoning- rightly- that it would be cheaper than war.

And Germany has had issues to this day with the Nazis. I think making something illegal like they did gives it a kind of romantic mysterious feel especially to young people who are rebelling at everything because well that is what kids do.

I don't fly my flag because it is to fragile but I do have a battle flag pin I wear on my cowboy hat. It was a gift from a fellow rodeo clown who happened to be black. He knew I liked unicorns and this one has the flag over its back.

These last two points are not directed at what you said Danny they just occurred to me as I was answering you.

The reason the Klan burned crosses was a sign of Christian might. But no one goes around claiming all Christians are racist.

I would like to point out that US Cavalry carrying the American flag did some horrible things to Native Americans under that flag yet I don't see anyone accusing Americans who fly it as supporting genocide against an indigenous people.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And Germany has had issues to this day with the Nazis.

True...but even so, there aren't many debates over the intent of those flying the Swastica or flashing SS regalia.

The banning of the symbology does not make the problem go away, but it does place limits on how often you'll have to face it. Closed sewers are easier to live with than open ones.

I would like to point out that US Cavalry carrying the American flag did some horrible things to Native Americans under that flag yet I don't see anyone accusing Americans who fly it as supporting genocide against an indigenous people.

True again, but that is because there aren't many hate groups going around today denegrating Native Americans under the aegis of the Stars & Stripes. (Those groups tend to gravitate towards Nazi & Confedeate symbols.) IOW, it's not the past injustices, but the modern usage.

With the Confederate Battle Flag, despite those who served under it with honor, the symbol quickly became nearly completely co-opted by the racist sub-element for it's own purposes, and has been one of the main uses since the late 1800s.

Let me ask this: if there was a word with a nonracist and a racist meaning in modern language- both well known- how long would you use the word before tiring of dealing with the negative repercussions like having to explain which way you meant it? Or not being given a chance to do so before having people think you were a racist?

 

[Elf Witch]

True...but even so, there aren't many debates over the intent of those flying the Swastica or flashing SS regalia.

The banning of the symbology does not make the problem go away, but it does place limits on how often you'll have to face it.


True again, but that is because there aren't many hate groups going around today denegrating Native Americans under the aegis of the Stars & Stripes. (Those groups tend to gravitate towards Nazi & Confedeate symbols.) IOW, it's not the past injustices, but the modern usage.

With the Confederate Battle Flag, despite those who served under it with honor, the symbol quickly became nearly completely co-opted by the racist sub-element for it's own purposes, and has been one of the main uses since the late 1800s.

Let me ask this: if there was a word with a nonracist and a racist meaning in modern language- both well known- how long would you use the word before tiring of dealing with the negative repercussions like having to explain which way you meant it? Or not being given a chance to do so before having people think you were a racist?

Except the Nazi movement has not gone away and evidence shows it is growing in strength among young Germans and Austrians.

I think it is much safer to have things out in the open and not kept in secret.

I lived near the Seminole Indian Reservation when I was a teen and the kids went to my high school and a lot of them refused to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and viewed the flag as a symbol of oppression.

The American Indian Movement of the 60s and 70s viewed the flag and the way that history was being taught as discrimination against the Native Americans, I remember reading a speech one of the founders of AIM made about how flying the American flag was condoning the slaughter and mistreatment of the Native people.

Talk to the Native Americans who live on the Reservations of what it was like and how they were treated by white townsfolk during the 50s and 60s in this country it just has not gotten the same coverage as what the Civil Right movement did. A lot of white owned business refused to allow them to shop or eat at their restaurants.

I know Jews, Pagans and Muslims who view the cross a symbol of hate and discrimination look at the horrible Westboro Church and what they have done with the symbol.

I also feel that instead of giving into hate take back the symbols that have been recruited for symbols of hate. The swastika was not a symbol that Nazis made they stole it originally it was an ancient Sanskrit symbol.

It depends on the word and what it means I am stubborn and I don't give into what I see as stupid political correctness. And if someone wants to judge me as racist based on my use of a word well my attitude is basically screw them. Just like my attitude with people who have judged me as racist because I own an authentic battle flag. I have been told I should destroy what is a piece of history along with the Confederate money I own and my great grandfather's cap.

Those items are a part of my family history and they are apart of American history. I refuse to destroy them because some idiotic bigots took the symbol and used it to terrorize blacks, Jews and Catholics.

The Civil War is part of our history and making it illegal to own a Confederate flag or not allow it to be flown over a Civil War graveyard or at a museum about the Civil War is just plain out right ignorance.

We have come so far since those days. A Black man is in the White House we have black congressman and Governors. Is racism dead no it is not but we have come a long way since the 1960s. I am certainly not going to judge anyone who has Confederate flag or any Confederate memorabilia as being racist.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Except the Nazi movement has not gone away and evidence shows it is growing in strength among young Germans and Austrians.

Neo-Nazism is on the rise in Russia as well.

And membership of young people in white power groups is on the rise in the USA. Recruitment curremtly has almost no relationship with the public display of the symbols thanks to the Internet, and overall, has a stronger correlation with a country's economic conditions.

And that being the case, I'd rather not have symbols with such unfortunate connotations on public display.

I lived near the Seminole Indian Reservation when I was a teen and the kids went to my high school and a lot of them refused to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and viewed the flag as a symbol of oppression.

The American Indian Movement of the 60s and 70s viewed the flag and the way that history was being taught as discrimination against the Native Americans, I remember reading a speech one of the founders of AIM made about how flying the American flag was condoning the slaughter and mistreatment of the Native people.

Talk to the Native Americans who live on the Reservations of what it was like and how they were treated by white townsfolk during the 50s and 60s in this country it just has not gotten the same coverage as what the Civil Right movement did. A lot of white owned business refused to allow them to shop or eat at their restaurants.

I'm part Choctaw*, and I don't view the American flag as a symbol of oppression. I'm not saying evil wasn't done under its unfurled majesty, and yes, the Native American experience in some parts of this country differed little in substance from the plight of Southern blacks.

But like I said, there are no recognized hate groups (AFAIK) that use it as one of its major organizational symbols.

I know Jews, Pagans and Muslims who view the cross a symbol of hate and discrimination look at the horrible Westboro Church and what they have done with the symbol.

Many Christians loathe the Westboro church as well...though since the cross IS a reminder of a particularly gruesome execution method, so its message is inherently complex.

I also feel that instead of giving into hate take back the symbols that have been recruited for symbols of hate. The swastika was not a symbol that Nazis made they stole it originally it was an ancient Sanskrit symbol.

The swastika- left or right handed- shows up in a great many cultures' symbology, including some Native American ones. However, my understanding of the German laws is that ithey do not ban the display of all swastikas, just those with overtly Nazi connections- the RWB color scheme, paired with the lightning bolt SS, etc.

As for the rehabilitation of symbols & words: for some, it's just not worth it. They should just be left on the ash-heap of history, or at the very least, kept out of the general public. Even for compositions I enjoy, I hate it when black artists use the N-word in their lyrics as a term of endearment.





* And a bunch of other stuff besides. Basically, if you know an ethnic slur, I'm entitled to be offended by it.

 

[Oryan77]

It is also highly unfair to compare Nazi anything to the Confederacy. It was two completely different agendas. Of course people are going to claim it is similar because they keep relating the ownership of slaves to being racist (therefor evil).

The south wasn't going to war to exterminate blacks. The south wasn't marching into territories to take over land. The south wasn't trying to take power from the north. The south was not fighting out of hatred towards anyone. You can't say the same about the Nazis.

The only reason the confederate flag has a bad rep is because ignorant people keep distorting the truth and comparing the south to Nazi Germany. They feel they can do that since the south lost (meaning, since they owned slaves and lost the war, that means they were the bad guys).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The south wasn't marching into territories to take over land. The south wasn't trying to take power from the north.

Actually, they had plans of doing just that, but did not have the military might to succeed. The Southern Ultimatums made that perfectly clear (and, FWIW, tainted the states rights argument even further).

The only reason the confederate flag has a bad rep is because ignorant people keep distorting the truth and comparing the south to Nazi Germany.

No, there are several reasons, but the biggest is that the confederate flag has a bad rep because ignorant people keep distorting the truth and using the symbols of the Confederacy as the symbols of their hate groups alongside the symbols of the Nazis...

If you could get the racists to change their symbology, the CBF might have a chance of being redeemed.

 

[Relique du Madde]

Personally I am against creating ash heaps for words, symbols, and phrases which had negative historical connotations, may offend, or may make people feel bad orr uncomfortable.

The reason is simple: Symbols and words represent knowledge and to deny the existance of those things that represent negatve aspects of culture, society, or history just so that you could feel better about yourself will only lead to humanity repeating those mistakes and causing further harm in the future.

Also, remember that some of those "shame" words have other meanings and were coopted or were corrupted. For instance, the "n world" that ends o is the spanish word for black. So imagine how it made me feel back in the mid 80s when I didn't think about race (I colored everyone "flesh" in my K-3rd grade crayon based artwork because light pink skin was easier to draw faces on with pencil), and was told that "negro*" was an evil word and that I shouldnt ever draw people who weren't white as having light pink skin even though artistically it worked better and I didnt think about race and I knew at the time that we all were basically the same. (Sadly, those teachers killed that idealistic notion by saying race matters.)

* It should be noted, for those who never heard some of my child hood stories in the HIVE that my teachers brainwashed me to not speaking spanish becuase the slight lisp I spoke with during grade school was "because I spoke spanish" and because "No one at this school speaks spanish except your family so stop speaking it because we won't understand you."

-Sent via Tapatalk

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally I am against creating ash heaps for words, symbols, and phrases which had negative historical connotations, may offend, or may make people feel bad orr uncomfortable.

There's a big gap between not educating folks about words & symbols with negative connotations, and not being a fan of their continued use or attempts at their rehabilitation. I support the latter, but believe strongly that education about those symbols & their context is crucial. George Santayana's quote rings as true now as ever...as do the lessons in historical linguistics given us by George Orwell.

Ideally, we'd get to a point when the only time people had to see those things in the context of hate would be in a history class, not the 5PM news.

 

[gamerprinter]

A couple of thoughts that may also be of interest (since I didn't read the entire thread, they may have been mentioned already.)

There were more agendas than just the obvious ones.

The north wanted to subjugate the south with industrialization. In other words, the north were making tractors and many other kinds of agricultural equipment to reinvent agricultural science. The south relying on slaves really weren't as effective of farmers, as could be done with modern farm machinery. The civil war, by the north, was meant to destroy the south's current agricultural capability (slaves) and force the south to buy northern made farm equipment.

The south wanted to not only secede from the Union, but through the Golden Circle, wanted to make the south own and control the eastern half of Mexico down to the Caribbean Sea, where the gulf of Mexico was the central area of trade for the south.

Slaves were the underlying issue, but a combination of States Rights vs. Federal control, subjugation of the south and destruction of their economic system (through the removal of slaves), forced purchase of modern farm equipment from the north - were all part of the big picture in the civil war.