How will this party do?

[Prophet2b]

So we had our first 4e session tonight. The party consisted of:

Paladin
Rogue
Ranger
Wizard

Originally, the rogue was going to be a warlord, but the player has always played more skilled roguish characters, and he finally decided that he wanted to stick with that.

Unfortunately, he met a quick end from three successive (high rolling) attacks (I've never had a PC die first session before - that was a first for me!).

For his next character, he's bringing in a wizard.

My question is, from others' experiences, how will this party do?

The current wizard is a front-line Eladrin battle wizard, taking feats to up her armor and weapon damage, and her spells are primarily damage dealing spells. Basically, she wants to be in with the action.

He'll be playing a more control/utility wizard.

Still no cleric or warlord. One defender. One striker.

It should be very interesting to see, and I'm holding off on any opinions as to the effectiveness of the party (they've pulled of some pretty amazing things in the past), but I am curious how others think they will fair, based on their own experiences.

Along with this, I noticed that the DMG says that if you were to have only two players in a game, they should fulfill the roles of defender and leader. That seems to suggest that those are the two most fundamental roles that a party can't do without. Have others found this to be true? Are there any thoughts on this?

 

[blargney the second]

Off the top of my head, I'd say the party may have a hard time hitting consistently because of the lack of a leader to buff attack modifiers.

 

[Nifft]

So the characters will be Paladin, Ranger, and 2 Wizards?

That Paladin is going to be awfully lonely on the front line by all himself. The party seems brittle, unless that Eladrin can actually tank a bit.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I'd worry. The Paladin seems like it will be pulling double duty. It's gonna be tough to make it with that group.

 

[Prophet2b]

That Paladin is going to be awfully lonely on the front line by all himself. The party seems brittle, unless that Eladrin can actually tank a bit.

Well, the more I'm looking at the party, here's my thoughts:

Early on, they should be alright. The wizard can tank a bit right now. The (archer) ranger can dish out a lot of damage. The paladin can handle himself alright. The new wizard will be taking valuable control spells, like sleep.

My fear is later levels. We've never played later levels (obviously), and so once the enemies start dishing out more damage and the individual party member's hit points start to become more widely spread, (as in, paladin higher, everyone else lower), I'm beginning to wonder how they'll be able to take it. The paladin can't protect everyone.

One of my players is arguing (and I think he has a point) that because of how quickly monster hit points go up each level, having strikers (especially) or controllers who can dish out huge amounts of damage and control the battlefield would be better than defenders or leaders, because the strikers and controllers can take down the enemies a whole lot faster.

I haven't actually seen this in play, yet, so while it sounds good (to me) in theory, I was wondering if anyone had actually seen anything to this effect in game.

Or are you pretty much screwed if you don't have a well-balanced, every role filled party?

 

[shamsael]

My players scoffed at the leader classes too.

Out of 5 people, I wound up with two fighters, a ranger, a warlock and a rogue. I ran them through keep on the shadowfell and they TPKed on the second encounter.

As soon as PCs started falling, the most experienced player announced he would be dropping his fighter in favour of a warlord.

 

[Vague Jayhawk]

Yeah, my players took a look at the leader classes and said no. I have paladin, fighter, wizard and rogue.

 

[Eldorian]

The game I'm running doesn't have a wizard, and it seems to me that the encounters need modifications if you don't have at least one of each role. Without a wizard, my party has trouble with minions. They're fighting a battle with about 10-16 minions,

Spoiler

the kolbold lair in KotS

, and having a hard time dealing with the minions. Without a striker, you'll need more minions, without a defender, less soldiers and brutes. Without a controller, less minions, and without a leader... I have no idea what you're going to do. Weaker fights? Less EVERYTHING hehe. Leader really is a force multiplier. You can play without one, but you'll definitely notice.

 

[Hejdun]

The paladin is going to get mobbed and taken down, and then it'll be open season on the softer characters. If you play that paladins can't Lay on Hands themselves, then they have no real way to heal themselves other than a Second Wind, which is like a tiny speed bump compared to the damage he's going to be attracting.

I played a paladin in a short 2 player demo (we didn't have the full group together for our 3.5 game, so we were trying out 4e), and it's awfully easy to get mobbed to death from minions. 2 wizards will help with the mook sweeping, but all it takes is one bad round of rolling before the paladin gets overwhelmed and drops. You have to have some sort of leader helping the defender, else the defender drops very easily.

I've noticed in 4e that enemies hit far more often than in 3.x. You're looking at lvl 2 archers getting something like +9 to hit and 1d6+4 damage, and the best AC you can possibly get at the beginning is about a 20 (plate + shield). It's a lot harder to shield yourself from damage in 4e, so healing is far, far more important than it was in 3.5. Leaders are pretty much a necessity if you want to avoid constant deaths.

 

[Vayden]

Agreed. The two most essential roles are defender and leader. The only party I'd play in missing a leader would have to have at least two defenders, one of whom was a paladin. It's way too easy to mobbed into the ground, and you can't rely on just killing them before they kill you - with the way the numbers work, a couple rounds of good rolls for the monsters will have you on your ass without a leader.