How would you advance Class, Race, and Themes?

[Crazy Jerome]

Another way to approach it is to distinguish between the core abilities of the race, class, or theme versus the customization possibilities--much the way 4E roles attempt to make sure a class "does what it says on the tin". This would be keeping with the "keep it simple" idea of the core mechanics, and simultaneously allow feats and other customization options to be less important and powerful.

That is, if you pick "dwarf" there are some core things that most people are happy enough to consider part of that, and you get them in some useful form as abilities as you level. Perhaps certain lore, "stone cunning," and poison resistance go here. Then feats don't need to carry the weight of making you more "dwarfish", but can simply add some other minor things that are certain possible for a dwarf and/or expand the range of the abilities you already have. Themes would work the same way.

In fact, the key to making that work is seeing that all three legs work that way. You could pick no feats, and your character would be simple and functional according to what the R/C/T labels said. Maybe your flexibility is not as diverse, and you a missing a +1 here and a +2 there, but you can function.

Make feats less important, and then you can allow more freedom of what you pick where. Moreover, it really doesn't affect balance that much to allow more or less of them, depending on your campaign style.

 

[Kalontas]

I'd have levels be not just class levels but character levels. So the "14" in "14th level deva invoker" doesn't stand for "14th level invoker, who BTW is a Deva", but "14th level dude, who's a deva, and an invoker". With each new level, you'd have option to get perks related to - up to your choice - either your class, race or theme; with possibility of switching that perk for additional "option", like multiclassing, "multitheming" (it's not too far fetched IMO to have your ordained priest dabble in alchemy) or various prestige classes/paragon paths.

 

[gyor]

I believe they'll be basic features you get from both race, class, and theme, some of which appear at later levels. To expand a theme or race beyond these basic default features, you can use feats. Maybe the same with classes.

 

[Kalontas]

I believe they'll be basic features you get from both race, class, and theme, some of which appear at later levels. To expand a theme or race beyond these basic default features, you can use feats. Maybe the same with classes.

I have to disagree with making a feat tax for additional racial abilities. If both abilities (one gained from race at level 7, and one gained from class at level 7) are equivalent and balanced, why do we have to waste a feat to obtain the race-based power? Just use one OR the other, and problem fixed.

 

[Glade Riven]

Hrm. Rather than something go up from all three categories, I would prefer Talent Trees. Advance a level? Pick a talent. Most talents are class related, some may be avalable due to your race or theme. Advance another level? Pick a bonus feat. And so on. Works for the "hot swaping" Wizards has been talking about.

 

[Jack7]

Personally I'd like to see Class Advancement Experience based, Race Advancement Achievement based, and Theme Advancement Intention based, rather than by level or leveling up.

That is advancements to Class are definitely gonna be Experience based (leveling-up) given the historical development of the game, but I'd rather see Race Advancement and Theme Advancement proceed in different ways.

You guys have suggested some interesting ideas to me. Thanks for your input.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Personally I'd like to see Class Advancement Experience based, Race Advancement Achievement based, and Theme Advancement Intention based, rather than by level or leveling up.

I'd rather see that too, when you get right down to it. However, I can't see any version of such advancement not based on levels being:

1. Reasonably simple while covering what people would expect once you go down that road.

2. A good fit for D&D.

Everything I've come up with along those lines always turns into a watered-down compromise, in order to make a good fit with class leveling. I'm open to better ideas though.

 

[Ratinyourwalls]

Race and Class should be kept as basic as possible. There should be lots of themes/kits that you can customfit into the campaign setting that you like.

 

[Jack7]

I'd rather see that too, when you get right down to it. However, I can't see any version of such advancement not based on levels being:

1. Reasonably simple while covering what people would expect once you go down that road.

2. A good fit for D&D.

Everything I've come up with along those lines always turns into a watered-down compromise, in order to make a good fit with class leveling. I'm open to better ideas though.

I understand you. This is my take. I think a great deal of this will come down to, 'how much steerage will the game allow for Role Play and how much will it try to insist upon predetermined and fixed rules construction?'

In my opinion Role Playing Games, by very nature, are ill suited to overly-complicated rules Construction because such things eventually, intentionally or not, constrict and strangle Role play elements that would otherwise take precedence and would be of primary importance (for the Player).

So if the game goes, in construction, for heavy predetermination then I think, though lack of creativity and flexibility it may very well be left with merely cloning the same structural constructs in every category.

If not I think it can develop some loose and fluid general systems that will allow DMs and Players to innovate rather freely in different categories of Character development to suit both the milieu and the Player's best interests (rather than just the Designer's and the character's best interest).