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How would you balance the Bard & the Cleric?

skippy_the_witch said:
Here is a bards way of destroying an enemy. First, use suggestion or like bardic music ability (preferably on a child) and have them spread some sort of nasty rumor or report some sort of false attack. Add more people to this over the next few days, feeding the fire by spreading rumors yourself ("I'm not one to gossip, but did you hear about what Lord Fred did..."), until you have a good solid mob mentality. Then through some subtle, or even not so subtle, control of the right person, have mob light torches and storm castle. Within a week to a month, a bard should be able to stir up a revolution even in the most well adjusted population and kingdom (with a little help from some magic). That is just one of the many powerful things a bard can do.

Even for a party, a bard can be a god-send. He can write songs about the "heroic" exploits of the party, adding immesurably to their reputation. This can lead to the party gaining patrons, contracts, etc. A properly trained bard can even save the party from a raging mob, convincing said mob that "burning down the village to save the village" is a reasonable idea. Hell, if he does his job right, the bard can even get the mob to "thank" the party for what they have done. This ability to insite revolution or rally mobs is the reason why my seemingly benevalent fascist Federation (the civilized area of my technomagical pseudo-post-apocalyptic homebrew campaign) does not permit bards within their borders (an outed bard within the Federation either does not stay long or has an inevitably fatal "accident").

But all many gamers see is how good a character is in combat, or during the aftermath of combat (healing, etc), not what his true potential is. Remember that we are supposed to be playing ROLE PLAYING Games, so if you are not willing to role-play, or if the extent of your role playing is a nifty battle cry before you hack and slash your way through a campaign, then you might want to switch to War Games (such as War Hammer). They can be just as much fun and combat capability is the be all and end all.

I don't think this is so much a problem of players not knowing how to play a bard as it is most players not playing in the environment to use these situations. Add to that that none of the stated "powers" are unique to the bard. Anyone can write a song. Anyone who invests some skillpoints can incite the rabble. Anyone who focuses on this can do it well. Wizards and sorcs can cast charms and suggestions and if they so desire, instead of having the mob light torches, they can fireball the place to the ground. Then they can teleport home and have a cup of tea and a warm bath in style.

I understand your point, but I think you make the mistake of confusing the ephemera of what a bard is supposed to be with the abilities as written. I don't believe its fair to suggest that people switch to war games simply because they feel that the bard doesn't measure up statistically. As you said, D&D is a role playing game. What you don't mention is the "game" part. If we were engaged simply in creative story telling, I'd agree with you. But that last word, game, adds a whole world of metrics that the character must contend with, that go beyond one's creativity and personality. That is why balance is important. You are not only measured by your own criteria but by the system at large.
 

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cleric should get a domain once every five levels and lose heavy armor (more balance, no single level to gain luck and destuctive blow and armor for barbarian and ranger). Bards should get invocation enchantment and illusion spells only and less of them get a song every few levels, the songs would last longer too. the bard should also have some ability like finesse only for charisma call flash fighing or something 'cause a fire throughing tumbling swordsman would just plain be cool
 

I think the bard should receive bonuses to sound-related skills and spells every few levels. The cleric, while too powerful on paper, should be left as is because the extra power is needed to encourage people to enter the class.
 

Learned Bard

Here's my two cents on the Bard situation ;)

Basically, I don't like the 3.0 and 3.5 version of the bard. Don't like it a bit. To me being a bard is not being about a Fantasy equivelent of the Cyberpunk Rockerboy. I much prefered the 2e flavor of the Bard, and so created a alternate version

Many Bard fans have praised this version. So I share it with you here

This is printed in Issue 85 of Knights of the Dinner Table magazine, in case you're wondering

---

The Learned Bard: A Character Type Variant for Dungeons and Dragons 3.5

I'm not the first person who has a problem with the Bard class in today's D&D, nor will I be the last. The standard civilized argument goes something like this:

"CHARISMA BASED MAGIC? WHAT THE #@!$?"

Granted, there is a strong case to be made for Charisma based magic. For one thing, it's very streamlined. All of your primary bardic needs are filled by that one attribute. Magic, special abilities, bardic song and story telling ability, it's all there. But not everyone likes the idea of a Charisma based Bard.

Look back to the Norse Scald, or the Medieval Minstrel. Yes, they entertained, but their primary job was to transmit information, be it history or current events. They were the Wandering News Agency, and had to be hearty enough to travel around the country. It is this concept of a bard which attracted me to the character type in the first place. An intelligent jack of all trades, a learned person who doesn't have the patience to sit behind a desk. The MacGuyver of D&D.

Using Charisma based magic ("bringing forth magic from his soul") turns him into either a Sorcerer who can't cut the mustard, or a musician who somehow taps into the Led Zeppelin Material Plane as a source of power. The very idea of him studying and learning magic has all but been removed. It kills the academic flavor of the Bard in favor of a flashy jumpsuit with sequins. The Rockerboy of D&D. This is what I call a "Gifted Bard".

However... let's think about this logically. There are Wizards who study and learn, and there are Sorcerers to whom magic comes naturally. Why can't the same thing apply to Bards? It's the same as a talented technical actor who plans and studies and trains to be the best actor he can be, versus someone to whom acting comes naturally and requires little, if any, practice. It's the difference between Sir Lawrence Olivier and Haley Joel Osmont. Logically there MUST be some Bards out there who can't simply "tap into" the Led Zeppelin Material Plane, and instead have gone the more difficult but rewarding route of learning magic "the hard way".

Alternately, perhaps in your campaign you simply don't want to use Sorcerer-type magic, or perhaps you wish to retain what you feel is the Bard's "original" flavor.

This is what the "Learned Bard" is for.



LEARNED BARD

Adventures: There is no point in doing a complete re-write of the Bard template, since much of the information remains the same. Bards of either school (Learned or Gifted) seek adventure, knowledge, the unknown and great deeds to sing or tell others about in epic poetry.

Characteristics: Unlike a Gifted Bard, the Learned Bard must learn his magic from a book, though his wiley improvisational mind does allow him to take a couple of shortcuts . Thus he has a much wider range of spells available to him (up to 6th level), and can wear light armor. However, he cannot cast as many spells as his Gifted cousin.

In addition to spells, the Learned Bard can also use music, ballads, and poetry to great affect, to encourage allies or manipulate people. However, the strength of this power differs from the Gifted Bard. Of course, the Learned Bard is equally adept at gleaning general information as his Gifted cousin.

Alignment: Like their Gifted cousins, Learned Bards are not usually compatible with a Lawful alignment. However, their diligent study and focused academic nature magically tends to pull them away from being Chaotic as well. This means the majority of Learned Bards are of a Neutral Alignment (Good, Evil, or True).

Background: While Gifted Bards pass on their skills to others who have "the Gift", Learned Bards often struggle up from their boot straps. They refuse to take "No" for an answer. They pester the local mage until he teaches them a few tricks, follow the local men-at-arms to pick up some pointers about fighting, sing and con their way in taverns to make ends meet, while sneaking into the local library late at night and reading in the Restricted Section. As a result Learned Bards tend to look at their Gifted cousins as snobs who "had it easy". While some Learned Bards have been admitted to the informal Bardic "colleges" and have gained renown, more often than not they are outsiders, even among other Bards. Most Learned Bards are just fine with this arrangement.

Races: Like the Gifted Bard, this profession primarily attracts humans, elves and half-elves. Gnomes, with their innate magic and more chaotic nature, rarely take up the Learned path. Though dwarves do not have any Bardic traditions of the Gifted nature, they do have a number of Learned Bards. Men and women who can remember dwarven ancestors to the fiftith generation, who pass on ancient legends from one village to another, as well as adding their own exploits into the mix.

Other Classes: Bards of any type work well in a group, and can help fill in any gaps that might be present in an adventuring team.


Table 1 - The Learned Bard

------Base Attack-Fort--Ref---Will--Special-----------------------_ Spells per Day _
Level Bonus-------Save--Save--Save--------------------------------0 1 2 3 4 5 6
1-----+0----------+0----+2----+2----Bardic Music, Insp. Cour. +1--1 _ _ _ _ _ _
2-----+1----------+0----+3----+3----Countersong, Fascinate--------2 _ _ _ _ _ _
3-----+2----------+1----+3----+3----------------------------------3 0 _ _ _ _ _
4-----+3----------+1----+4----+4----Inspire Competence------------3 1 _ _ _ _ _
5-----+3----------+1----+4----+4----------------------------------3 2 0 _ _ _ _
6-----+4----------+2----+5----+5----------------------------------3 3 1 _ _ _ _
7-----+5----------+2----+5----+5----Suggestion--------------------3 3 2 _ _ _ _
8-----+6/+1-------+2----+6----+6----Inspire Courage +2------------3 3 2 0 _ _ _
9-----+6/+1-------+3----+6----+6----------------------------------3 3 3 1 _ _ _
10----+7/+2-------+3----+7----+7----Inspire Greatness-------------3 3 3 2 0 _ _
11----+8/+3-------+3----+7----+7----------------------------------3 3 3 2 1 _ _
12----+9/+4-------+4----+8----+8----------------------------------3 3 3 3 2 _ _
13----+9/+4-------+4----+8----+8----Song of Freedom---------------3 3 3 3 2 0 _
14----+10/+5------+4----+9----+9----Inspire Courage +3------------3 3 3 3 3 1 _
15----+11/+6/+1---+5----+9----+9----------------------------------3 3 3 3 3 2 _
16----+12/+7/+2---+5----+10---+10---Inspire Heroics---------------3 3 3 3 3 2 0
17----+12/+7/+2---+5----+10---+10---------------------------------3 3 3 3 3 3 1
18----+13/+8/+3---+6----+11---+11---Mass Suggestion---------------3 3 3 3 3 3 2
19----+14/+9/+4---+6----+11---+11---------------------------------3 3 3 3 3 3 2
20----+15/+10/+5--+6----+12---+12---Inspire Courage +4------------3 3 3 3 3 3 3


GAME RULE INFORMATION
Abilities: Intelligence determines how powerful a spell a Learned Bard can cast, how many spells he can cast per day, and hard those spells are to resist. Charisma is also very important since it directly influences the Bard Song. As always, a high Dexterity is useful.

Alignment: Usually Neutral (Good, Evil, True)
Hit Die: d6

CLASS SKILLS
The Learned Bard uses the Gifted Bard Skill List. However, it should be noted that the Learned Bard's access to Wizard spells means they no long have access to any of the Healing spells a Gifted Bard has. Most Learned Bards, knowing this limit, have spent plenty of time helping out at the local Healer's Hut, watching them use old fashioned remedies. Thus, they have access to Heal as a Class Skill.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

CLASS FEATURES
Weapon And Armor Proficiencies: Same as the Gifted Bard: Because of their ability to cut a few corners and simplify things with magic (such as somatic components), light armor incurs no arcane spell failure penalty. However, medium or heavier armor and shields incur the usual penalties. Weapons are the same as a Gifted Bard: simple weapons plus long sword, short sword, rapier, short bow, sap and whip.

Spells: Unlike the Gifted Bard, which must rely on the Bard Spell List, a Learned Bard learns the same kind of spells as a Wizard, up to 6th level. To learn or cast a spell, a Learned Bard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0 level spells, Int 16 for 6th level spells). The Difficulty Class for a savings throw against a Learned Bard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Intelligence modifier.

Like all other spell casters, a Learned Bard can cast only a certain number of spells per day (less than a Wizard), and receives bonus spells based on a high Intelligence score. Like a Wizard, the Learned Bard must prepare and memorize their spells beforehand. Unlike the Gifted Bard they are limited only by the number of spells they carry in their spellbook. While the level of their casting progression starts off slower than a Gifted Bard, in later levels they do catch up (though never in regards to the number of spells they can cast)

Spell limitations: Though they can learn the same kinds of spells, Learned Bards do not have the time or focus to learn ALL kinds of wizard spells. Thus, they are limited to four of the eight schools (or spheres) of Wizardry. The Learned Bard, however, gets to choose which schools to learn from. This is reflective of their individual nature, and how they usually chose their own course of instruction rather than being taught by a single master. These schools are fixed from the onset and do not change. In theory you could take two different Learned Bard types and alternate each level (and thus have access to all schools of magic), but this would SEVERELY limit spell casting abilities (at 10th level you'd still only have 2nd level spells!).

For example, an Evil Bard might take Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, and Transmutation (and raise an army of the dead, turn a crowd into an angry mob to do his bidding, summon monsters and change their shape and form in battle), while a Good Bard might prefer Abjuration, Divination, Evocation and Illusion (To protect themselves and others, learn and see more then they normally could, and use illusions and pyrotechnics in a show as well as in battle.) Both types of Bards, however, use scrolls from ANY school, not just the ones they are trained with.

The starting spellbook of a Learned Bard consist of only 4 0-level cantrips, chosen from the Sorcerer/Wizard Spells section from among their chosen schools. All others must be acquired the same way as a Wizard.

Special Feat: In exchange for a Feat, the Learned Bard can also chose to have the ability to Summon a Familiar the same way as a Wizard. (which can come in quite handy for con games, stealing keys to prison doors, etc...). See the D&D Players Handbook for details.

Bardic Knowledge: This works exactly the same as for a Gifted Bard, and is gained at first level.

Bardic Music: One of the down sides of the Learned Bard is that they can be called "late bloomers". While they have access to the same benefits, most of these benefits occur at a slower rate. Thus, while at first level a Bard automatically has access to Bardic Music and can Inspire Courage, they cannot use Countersong or Fascinate until level 2. Such is the price of focusing more on academic studies than tuning your lute.

The effects, durations, and minimum Perform requirements, however, remain the same as for the Gifted Bard.


HUMAN LEARNED BARD STARTING PACKAGE

Armor: Studded Leather (+3AC, armor check penalty -1, arcane spell failure chance n/a, speed 30 ft, 10 lbs)
Weapons: Rapier (1d6, crit 18-20/x2, 2 lbs, piercing)
Short Bow (1d6, crit x3, rng 60 ft, 2 lbs, piercing)
Skill Selection: Pick a number of skills equal to 7+Int modifier.

Skill-----------------Ranks---------Ability----Armor Check Penalty
Perform (choose type)---4-----------Cha-------- _
Spellcraft--------------4-----------Int-------- _
Use Magic Device--------4-----------Cha-------- _
Gather Information------4-----------Cha-------- _
Heal--------------------4-----------Wis-------- _
Listen------------------4-----------Wis-------- _
Decipher Script---------4-----------Int-------- _
Diplomacy---------------4-----------Cha-------- _
Knowledge (choose any)--4-----------Int-------- _
Bluff-------------------4-----------Cha-------- _
Sense Motive------------4-----------Wis-------- _
Search------------------2-----------Int-------- _

Feat: If Dex is over 13, Dodge. If Dex is under 13, Investigator
Bonus Feat: Familiar
Spellbook: Acid Splash, Light, Read Magic, Detect Magic
Spell Schools: Conjuration, Divination, Evocation, Illusion
Gear: Backpack with waterskin, one day's trail rations, bedroll, sack, flint and steel. Three torches. Quiver with 20 arrows. Musical Instrument of your choice. Spell component pouch.
Gold: 2d4 gp
 

skippy_the_witch said:
But all many gamers see is how good a character is in combat, or during the aftermath of combat (healing, etc), not what his true potential is. Remember that we are supposed to be playing ROLE PLAYING Games, so if you are not willing to role-play, or if the extent of your role playing is a nifty battle cry before you hack and slash your way through a campaign, then you might want to switch to War Games (such as War Hammer). They can be just as much fun and combat capability is the be all and end all.

Ironically, I had more ROLEplaying out of Warhammer than our of D&D. I can only play D&D at tournaments, and since combats last so darn long, there is little room for the rest, and no time to play political games.

In a pure political campaign, the Bard is better than even the Rogue, though not by much. But D&D, with all its rules for combats and such, is not oriented towards political campaign. You can make it work, of course, but that's not the feeling one gets from so boardgame-like tactical rules.
 

Bard, cleric, bard/cleric

Consider that the core adventuring group consists of 4 characters (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue) it is not suprising that these four character classes are min/maxed to their roles. The fact that the cleric occupies the rank of 2nd best combatant, second best spell caster and only healer means that, of course, they are more powerful in terms of sheed unadalterated game stats. The secondary character classes each suffer from non-min/max-ing in that they don't get as much fundamental power in one area, but get diversity. Sometimes pure power is the biggest advantage, sometimes multiskilling. Them is the breaks.

But what most this talk is highlighting for me is the social cost of the character classes. And by that I mean the fundamental gurps-type disadvantages of the main character classes.

Note the references to not wanting to play clerics. Why? Two reasons: (1) their role in combat is to fight till someone gets hurt then heal friends (BORING), and (2) because clerics have mental and social disadvantages implicit in their write-up. In DnD this is invisible from a rules perspective, but it is there regardless.

Bards have NO implicit social or mental disadvantages, and have the greatest social power of any character class because they are the character class with the highest skill points that focuses on Charisma as their primary stat. Sure, you can play a social rogue, with better skill points and focusing on your charisma, but they are then not likely to be that great a rogue when it comes to doing the classic rogue role in a dungeon. The bard class' natural inclination and role is a social one. Upping their power in any way (save to give them free performance of choice at max rank (because they are going to anyway)) seems superfluous to me.

So. In a dungeon bash, for your five party team, make your fifth person another warrior/mage. In a city, make them a bard, every time. To try to substitute any of the core four classes for your first four players will change the style and balance of your game, guarenteed. And that can be fun too...

Anecdote: three players: <b>fighter</b>/rogue, ranger/<b>mage</b>, cleric/bard. Cleric/bard ended up using the bard powers for the most of the fun stuff in the game, but upping the cleric levels primarily for personal power reasons. Still, use of the bard spells and abilities alway created the most socially enjoyable situations (seducing bad guys lieutenants, making people hear or see things not there, performing for demons, etc). But when it came down to it, we just needed someone to raise the dead more.

Evan
 

PlotDevice said:
clerics have mental and social disadvantages implicit in their write-up. In DnD this is invisible from a rules perspective, but it is there regardless.

Bards have NO implicit social or mental disadvantages,

A bard and a cleric of Pelor arrive in a village. Guess who is best welcomed?

Also, Bards cannot be Lawful. Clerics can be of any alignement. The player chooses the god, not the god the character. Or he can just play a cleric of "Good" and not even bother with a deity.
 

PA said:
A bard and a cleric of Pelor arrive in a village. Guess who is best welcomed?

Also, Bards cannot be Lawful. Clerics can be of any alignement. The player chooses the god, not the god the character. Or he can just play a cleric of "Good" and not even bother with a deity.

Well, in times of trouble, the cleric. In an average day, the bard. Depends if you want for entertainment or guidance. And from a rules perspective under all circumstances, the answer is "Whoever has the higher charisma.": odds are, the bard.

From a gurps-type perspective, alignment in any direction is a mental disadvantage, not a benefit. It restricts you from acting in specific ways. Technically Neutral is the least restrictive alignment from this point of view. :)
 

My solution for Bards is simple...

Get rid of them...

Make the Bardic Song a Selection of Feats for PC's to choose from.
 

It's been said before, but I'd be more inclined to worry about the power of clerics if more people showed interest in playing them. On the last major poll posted here, they came in dead last among the original core classes, and by a wide margin.

As for some of the suggestions here... Taking away heavy armor and reducing the hit die? You expect a class that has to wade into combat to heal, has tons of (non-ranged) touch spells, and whose AC-boosting and evasion spells are an order of magnitude weaker than the arcane ones to take a significant AC hit? Reducing their spellcasting ability, when they're the only class who, as a design feature, are expected to spend a large portion of their spells for the benefit of other characters, and have the most anemic, least interesting spell list of all casters? Half their spell list just consists of band-aids for fixing things someone else has inflicted on the party...
 

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