How would you balance the Bard & the Cleric?

Tuzenbach

First Post
So, there are these two threads on this board that deal with what the majority feel are the "strongest" & "weakest" class, respectively.

The former is Cleric, while the latter is Bard.

What would you do to help blur the power lines between the two?

For me, the Cleric thing is easy. It's the armour issue. Not that they should not be allowed to wear it, but that an equation should be put forth that takes into account the Cleric's level, certain feats, and/or experience points so that Clerics can "eventually" wear armour at high levels without penalty of spell failure (the wizard would also be able to, but would be twice as difficult to do so). I had something worked out a few months ago, posted it in a thread, and lost track of it. Oh well.

But the Bard fix is elusive for me. I've really no idea!

PS: For those of you who think the Sorcerer needs "fixing", you haven't read Khaalis' work on them in the House Rules section.
 

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As far as the bard goes... I don't think I could really balance the bard from my experience with them. But there was this idea I had to change the way Bardic music worked, it went something like this:

The way bardic music works now is through the use of an instrument, his/her voice or whistles. This effect lasts for only a few rounds (seconds/minutes). Usually its through singiner or whistling because that way a player can have a bard hold their weapon in combat and keep bardic music up and not have to stand there looking, what I feel frankly is a little absurd, playing the lyre while people are fighting to the death around them.

So what I was thinking was. Bardic music should last for 24 hours...or at least for a pretty long time (12 hours maybe..) Either way... a bard would have a number of songs they could learn as they leveled up. They could learn songs as though a wizard learns spells (as in, they could read sheet music and learn the song like a wizard reads scrolls to learn the spell). Anytime the party is "inactive" for an hour (during camp set up, during camp break down, an hour of overland travel, etc.) the bard can perform one of these songs they know. Each song does something magic/special much like spell, but it says around for a while, usually is some type of buff.

Think of it like this... the party is sitting around the fire at night getting ready for rest. The mage is in his tent studing his book. The cleric is casting his last heals for the day... and the bard plays a melody the calms everyones feelings and lets them reflect on their actions that day and inspired them for the next that the party keeps in their head or a bit. As opposed to... The fighter is trying to fight for his life against 3 bugbears at once and is down to 7 hitpoints, the cleric is yelling for help and is chanting his verbal components to heal someone, the wizard is yelling his verbal components to cast that spell and get out of the way of that goblin archer... and the bard stands there with his flute assuming someone hears him over the sounds of explodiing fireballs, the voices of the rest of his party, the voices of the enemy, the sound of metal clashing against each other... the sounds of conflict.

Anyway, once the song is performed, the entire party benifits from it for the period of time (24, 12, some amount of hours). Songs could be simple, +1 on attack and damage rolls, +1 AC, +1 saving throws, etc etc. Some could even be more RPish... like a song that reduces the % of random encounters overland or something. Later on, as the Bard gains more levels, they could gain the ability to sing 2 songs at once, or overlap two song effects.

And thats basically my idea on bardic music. As for the rest of what the bard does... I really don't know what one would do to balance them.
 

I don't think the cleric needs much "fixing". Yeah, it's a tough class and is a great fighter and the best healer. Not a lot of people want to play a cleric though. I'm playing a cleric right now and I really like it, but originally I "picked" to be the cleric because I was the last one to roll my character. I'm having a blast with him now (I think making him a dwarf is part of why I like him), but originally I wasn't interested and I think that's how a lot of people feel.

The cleric is a powerful class, but I don't think it's powerful enough that it requires balancing.

However, I do think the bard needs to be beefed up. The bard isn't really written to be a formidable hero. S/He is very much a support role for the party. Whatever the party is lacking, the bard can pick up the slack with the right allocation of skills and feats. The bard can be the thief if no one wants to be it. S/He can be a second class healer or wizard if the party needs it. Their basically back up for the party.

In regards to the songs, I definately think there needs to be more. They have good songs at the moment, but are very limited. I'd love to see bard song lists the length of a wizards spell list. And the songs should be similar to socerer's spells in that the bard learns songs and then doesn't have to prep them during the day. There should be songs for just about everything. Take a look at the Everquest bard. Bards are sought after by some groups for what they bring. Songs should range from giving boni to attack, damage, resists, AC, etc. But maybe throw in a song that when played within 10 feet of someone casting cure light wounds maximizes the spell. I like the idea of a song that decreases random encounters.

In my opinion there needs to be many more bard songs with a huge range of benifits and make them be able to sing a significant number of times per day. That would make them a much more viable class.
 


How about increasing the Bard's spellcasting abilities by having certain of their spells count as multiple versions without using up additional spells known? For instance, if a bard picks charm person, have that automatically add charm monster, charm plants, etc. to his spell list when they gain access to those spells? This would allow a bard a greater variety of spells, and show their focus on charm/hold enchantment spells without them needing to decide if they need to take the person/monster versions of them?
 

I'd say leave the Cleric alone. I remember all too well when no one wanted to play them, and I'm not seeing an overabundance of them even now. They're very powerfull, but the play style is less appealing to many, which "balances" the class IMO.

As for the bard, I agree they could use something. Has anyone here played a high level bard, or had one in a high level party? One of my major concerns has been that when mind blank becomes available, the bard may rapidly become irrelevant. One of the things on my wish list would be to let the bard inspire allies even if they become immune to mind affecting stuff. A couple of dice of sneak attack or a few bonus feats would certainly help, but I think I'd rather see improvements be in the area of spells or songs.
 

Tuzenbach said:
So, there are these two threads on this board that deal with what the majority feel are the "strongest" & "weakest" class, respectively.

The former is Cleric, while the latter is Bard.

What would you do to help blur the power lines between the two?

For me, the Cleric thing is easy. It's the armour issue. Not that they should not be allowed to wear it, but that an equation should be put forth that takes into account the Cleric's level, certain feats, and/or experience points so that Clerics can "eventually" wear armour at high levels without penalty of spell failure (the wizard would also be able to, but would be twice as difficult to do so). I had something worked out a few months ago, posted it in a thread, and lost track of it. Oh well.

But the Bard fix is elusive for me. I've really no idea!

Cuz it doesn't need to be fixed maybe? I played one for two years and the idea that they're naturally weaker than the other classes is just wrong, especially now that they're rolling in skill points and don't have failure rolls for light armor.

Just for considerations of elegance though, I myself would probably either integrate bardic music with the spell casting more closely OR bring back the old wizard-style spell preparation. The current situation with separate sound-dependent sorcerer-style casting and musical spell-like abilities is pretty goofy, especially since so many of the music effects duplicate spells anyway.

If you wanted to power the class up a little bit and open the gap between bardic music and bardic spellcasting (plus give it more of the older edition flavor), a very easy way to do it would be to simply say that bards prepare spells from books (or sheets of music or tabs) like they used to, keeping the same number of spells per day. It might also make sense to give them spontaneous casting with a series of enchantment spells, say, a version of Charm with a hit dice limit of oh... say... 3x the spell level.

At any rate, I really liked the idea that bards could collect new spells through their travel and adventures, rather than just pulling them out of their kazoos when they get a new level, as in the current system. If any single thing about the 3.X version of the class had us going "WTF?" a lot, it was this mysterious mechanism by which they learn new spells. Clerics get them from gods, wizards get them from books - I dunno where bards and sorcerers get them from.

If you want to close the music/casting gap, basically you add some spells per day, make BM effects into spells (the ones that aren't already), and say that bardic performance functions as the V/S component for casting, and you need a certain number of Perform ranks to be able to cast a certain level of spell. The spells that are the old Bardic music effects then can be cast as spontaneous spells, like with Cures and Summon Natures Ally spells for clerics and druids. That way you get BM and spells into one mechanic and pool, but the BM effects are still fairly cheap for the bard to use.

If you like casting check mechanisms, you could also say that this Performance-based casting requires a Perf check with a level dependent DC, with taking 10 allowed so that it would only be required for casting difficult spells with a low Perform skill. Thereby, if say you were trying to cast a spell with an unfamiliar Performance type, like your character has 12 Ranks in Perform (Sing) but you're trying to quietly use your 5 ranks of Perform (Juggle) to do it, you still have a chance, but you might fail. This approach has the advantage of keeping casting checks infrequent but bringing them into play when the bard is trying to cast difficult spells in an unfamiliar manner. You could also force casting checks for Performing in difficult cricumstances, like using a ventriloquism Performance while drinking a glass of water.
 

how to fix bard

This is what i would do, give bard 8 skill points per lvl plus intelligence and every 4 lvls they have a free feat. But the free feats are like a ranger. You would have perfomance and charamsa feats or you can take magic feats. This to me makes the Bard more desiarble and i would allow a bard to do a few damage spells also. A la magic missile
 



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