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How would you balance the Bard & the Cleric?

MightIsRight said:
I don't think the cleric needs much "fixing". Yeah, it's a tough class and is a great fighter and the best healer. Not a lot of people want to play a cleric though.

Very right, and yet no class is so needed in a group. So let the big guy be. The bard, on the other hand... Well, it's especially obvious when comparing him to the cleric:

Spellcasting (songs included): CLERIC wins.
Buffing (songs included): CLERIC wins.
HD: CLERIC wins.
Armor: CLERIC wins.
BAB: No winner.
Saves: No winner.
Skills and Skill Points: BARD wins.
Special Abilities: BARD has Bardic Lore; CLERIC has Turning, Spontaneous Healing, and two Domain abilities.
 
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That would be excessive, spigadang. The only thing the Bard currently lacks is a bit of raw power, they've got enough versatility as-is in 3.5. Maybe give them a bonus feat from the Fighter's list (except the Fighter-only feats of course) at 2nd-level and every four or five levels following that, or give them a die of Sneak Attack at each of those levels. The Bard needs only a bit more offense, really, so that should do it. Maybe also a slight boost to the bonuses granted by Inspire Courage.

The only reason people don't play Clerics much is they're too jaded by the 2E mindset that Clerics just heal stuff. That's the only reason, and it's a stupid one. Clerics are the most powerful class and the only thing that could strike it home more blatantly for the nay-sayers would be to give them a Fighter's base attack bonus, but that would be overkill. Clerics should be toned down in their number of spells per day, and should maybe have their hit die reduced to a d6. They could use some more skill points or direct offense though, so maybe give them the ability to expend turning/rebuking attempts to instead charge a weapon with positive or negative energy, but in a destructive manner like xag-yas and xeg-yis use, such that it doesn't heal and instead only damages (same way that the positive energy plane is too intense for living creatures, and even worse for undead).
 

My favorite cleric fix is very simple: just remove divine favor, divine power, and righteous might from the class's spell list. The cleric is still tough, fun to play, a competent fighter in a pinch and still has a wide array of useful spells -- but you've eliminated any incentive that munchkins might have to play a hardcore battle-cleric who focuses on self-buffs and ignores the rest of the party (which seems to me to be counter to the spirit of the cleric, anyway).

As for the bard, I'd bump the hit die up to d8 and give the bard a bonus feat at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th). This might seem excessive on paper, but I really don't think it is -- it makes the bard more versatile and better able to last a couple of rounds in melee, but doesn't make him an appealing choice for munchkins or make him better at anything that another class does best.
 
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Cleric: Reduce spell lists and add a code of conduct based on deity, alignments, and/or domains selected.

Bard: have 2 paths; a combat heavy path with fewer optimum spells and combat lightpat with more magic abilities and spells, including a few that affect undead and constructs. Bards suffer in power similar to how multi classed characters suffer and so more focusing may assist that. the 3.x power increase reall does call for characters to focus on an ability to be most efficient.
 

Cleric - Drop Heavy armor proficiency

Bard - Raise skill pts to 8 per level and/or throw in a couple of appropriate bonus feats (make it like the monk and provide a couple of choices). Tweaking the spell list is also an option. While changing the nature of bardic song would also work, that would require more time and finetuning.
 

PA said:
Very right, and yet no class is so needed in a group. So let the big guy be. The bard, on the other hand... Well, it's especially obvious when comparing him to the cleric:

Spellcasting (songs included): CLERIC wins.
Buffing (songs included): CLERIC wins.
HD: CLERIC wins.
BAB: CLERIC wins.
Armor: CLERIC wins.
Saves: No winner.
Skills and Skill Points: BARD wins.
Special Abilities: BARD has Bardic Lore; CLERIC has Turning, Spontaneous Healing, and two Domain abilities.

I'm not clear as to how Clerics win with BAB since Bards and Clerics have identical BABs. Secondly, as almost everyone does, I think you grossly underestimate the power of Bardic music buffs, especially with the new progression. In 3.0, most of them had the advantage of being usable simultaneously with combat or other actions. No conc check, no action taken. In 3.5, they've lost some of that, but their power is generally increased substantially. Finally, why is it, for example, that "armor" is a special category separate from HD, but Skills and Skill points are one category? As long as you can arbitrarily pick categories like that, this sort of comparison just gives whatever results it was designed to give.
 

I don't have to balance clerics at all in my homebrew, because there are no clerics in my world. Due to the corrupting influence of the Shadow and it's Taint effect on magic and the world, this world has been quarrantined from both the astral plane and higher and lower planes. Thus, clerics have no access to divine powers, and so no spells, becoming little more than fighters.

As for bards, I think you folks are nuts. Bards, played correctly, are by far the most powerful class in basic 3.5 edition. But, I have found that most players have absolutely no clue how to play a bard, usually trying to use him as a thief with spells (a pseudo rogue/sorcerer). And any bard used this way usually does not survive for long, which is exactly what that player deserves. If a bard has to draw a weapon, then he has already lost. A bard is supposed to be a master of propaganda, of manipulation of emotions, of enchantment magics, not a spell slinger, or backstabber, or even duelist.

Here is a bards way of destroying an enemy. First, use suggestion or like bardic music ability (preferably on a child) and have them spread some sort of nasty rumor or report some sort of false attack. Add more people to this over the next few days, feeding the fire by spreading rumors yourself ("I'm not one to gossip, but did you hear about what Lord Fred did..."), until you have a good solid mob mentality. Then through some subtle, or even not so subtle, control of the right person, have mob light torches and storm castle. Within a week to a month, a bard should be able to stir up a revolution even in the most well adjusted population and kingdom (with a little help from some magic). That is just one of the many powerful things a bard can do.

Even for a party, a bard can be a god-send. He can write songs about the "heroic" exploits of the party, adding immesurably to their reputation. This can lead to the party gaining patrons, contracts, etc. A properly trained bard can even save the party from a raging mob, convincing said mob that "burning down the village to save the village" is a reasonable idea. Hell, if he does his job right, the bard can even get the mob to "thank" the party for what they have done. This ability to insite revolution or rally mobs is the reason why my seemingly benevalent fascist Federation (the civilized area of my technomagical pseudo-post-apocalyptic homebrew campaign) does not permit bards within their borders (an outed bard within the Federation either does not stay long or has an inevitably fatal "accident").

But all many gamers see is how good a character is in combat, or during the aftermath of combat (healing, etc), not what his true potential is. Remember that we are supposed to be playing ROLE PLAYING Games, so if you are not willing to role-play, or if the extent of your role playing is a nifty battle cry before you hack and slash your way through a campaign, then you might want to switch to War Games (such as War Hammer). They can be just as much fun and combat capability is the be all and end all.

Enough of my ranting.

skippy
GM of The Cursed Earth Campaign
 

tarchon said:
I'm not clear as to how Clerics win with BAB since Bards and Clerics have identical BABs.


Oh yeah? Well, it's very clear to me that I'm very right to say that I made a mistake.


tarchon said:
Secondly, as almost everyone does, I think you grossly underestimate the power of Bardic music buffs, especially with the new progression. In 3.0, most of them had the advantage of being usable simultaneously with combat or other actions. No conc check, no action taken. In 3.5, they've lost some of that, but their power is generally increased substantially. Finally, why is it, for example, that "armor" is a special category separate from HD, but Skills and Skill points are one category?

Uh? Armor is linked to AC, not HD. Skills and Skill points are one category because a bigger Skill list loses a lot in usefulness, anyway, if you don't have more Skill points (and the reverse is even more true). A much more direct link. Armor doesn't add to HD. Skill points buy Skills.

As for having a Cleric or a Bard to support me, songs or not, sorry, I'll choose Mr. Cleric.


tarchon said:
As long as you can arbitrarily pick categories like that, this sort of comparison just gives whatever results it was designed to give.

*blink blink* Okay, whatever you say. But if your logic held, I would have opposed Turning and Bardic Lore on one line, and "proven" that Bards had no equivalent to Domain abilities or Spontaenous Turning by putting them on another.
 
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For my campaign I took away a domain to be granted at later levels and underplayed the need for turning. I'm not sure that you need to do anything for bards really, as their role as 'helpers' is often overlooked for one more powerhouse instead. A group of barbarians won't get nearly as far as a bard that can talk her way around situations and gather info. Try building a few city adventures and see how well a bard can help out.
 

MarauderX said:
Try building a few city adventures and see how well a bard can help out.

Less than a rogue. :p

If the Bards were at least the best a social interactions, it wouldn't be all that bad. But with more Skill points, I can build a better socialite with a Rogue.
 

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