How would you balance the Bard & the Cleric?

[OrChasmatron]

With all the complaining about how this class is too weak and this class is too powerful, it amazes me that anyone plays D&D at all.

I think that the bard is fine the way he is. The environment where the bard is superior to all others is in the social skills, not in combat situations. If you want a character who is a supreme killer, make a fighter or barbarian. If you want a character who can talk his way into or out of anything then make a bard or rogue.

I think if people would come up with a rough character concept before picking a class they wouldn't be so focused on "what class is the most powerful." They would be focused on "what class best fits my character concept."

 

[rich]

umm, who has magic vestment? Who has shield of faith? Both of which stack with any armour worn and scale up with level (unlike shield and mage armour, the only two arcane AC boosting spells that immediately come to mind.

does the magic vestment "enhancement armor bonus" stack with magical armor?
do the arcane spells stack with each other? with magical armor?

 

[tarchon]

does the magic vestment "enhancement armor bonus" stack with magical armor?
do the arcane spells stack with each other? with magical armor?

MV's enhancement won't stack with the enhancement bonus on magic armor.

MV is +1/4 levels enhancement
Shield of Faith is +2 deflection

Shield is +1 shield
Mage Armor is +4 armor
Haste is +1 dodge (which is normally stackable)

Inspire Heroics is +4 dodge

Generally, combat defensive arcane spells rely more on concealment, giving % miss chances, like Blur (20%), Displacement(50%), and Mirror Image, plus the various flavors of Invisibility. There are also several that give DR, like Gaseous Form and Stoneskin.

 

[Woas]

I like Mossfoot's approach, but it doesn't solve the "guy standing there playing some Abba on his flute while his comrades are engaged in deadly combat with a dragon" problem that was cited earlier. This is a very hokey concept, and one I personally have a hard time getting my head around.

Did you see my post at all? Its like the second one...

I really liked the idea about making the bard into a rogue progression. Just like the monk or ranger, the rogue could take a charisma path or dexterity path as they gain levels or something. The dex path would include adding core skills like hide, move silent etc. The charisma path would add diplomacy, intimidate, gather info.

What I really think would be neat, instead of making the bard a part of a rogues "tree", make a tree for the bard. Either the Charisma/Performer path or the Sage/Knowledge gathering class. Choosing the Charisma/Performer path, the bard would gain more songs, and stronger songs. The Sage/Knowledge gatherer would recieve bardic knowledge and access to more spells/more per day, etc. I think that would be interesting for bards.

 

[tarchon]

Did you see my post at all? Its like the second one...

I really liked the idea about making the bard into a rogue progression. Just like the monk or ranger, the rogue could take a charisma path or dexterity path as they gain levels or something. The dex path would include adding core skills like hide, move silent etc. The charisma path would add diplomacy, intimidate, gather info.

I think that's probably a prestige class. Bard was, after all, the ur-PrC.

I have figured out how to fix the bard though - free Exotic Weapon Proficiency (musical instrument). KABONG!

 

[Celtavian]

re

The Bard doesn't need to be changed. The only reason the majority of people think it is the weakest class because it is weakest offensively. The bard has array of abilities that are very useful for different types of adventures. We have a straight class bard in our high level group, and he steers the battle in our favor like no other class including the cleric. A bard is the strongest party support class in the game, and does not need to be made offensively more powerful to please those who can't imagine playing a character that is not at least somewhat good at dealing damage.

The Cleric does not need to be changed because of the way the class is played by the majority of groups. A cleric spends the majority of their time healing and buffing other party members. When they actually do get to enter melee, the fighter has already been swinging for 2 or 3 rounds. Usually more than enough time to kill most enemies. Thus, the cleric doesn't often get to fully buff up and unleash their full power.

Not necessary to change either class.

 

[tarchon]

The Cleric does not need to be changed because of the way the class is played by the majority of groups. A cleric spends the majority of their time healing and buffing other party members. When they actually do get to enter melee, the fighter has already been swinging for 2 or 3 rounds. Usually more than enough time to kill most enemies. Thus, the cleric doesn't often get to fully buff up and unleash their full power.

Yep - that's exactly my experience. At least before the bardic music changes in 3.5 (of which I'm still a little dubious, even if it is generally more powerful now), my bard character was always in combat using songs 2-3 rounds before the cleric got out of the gate.
"Hang on - I'm casting Bless. Just another round so I can cast Divine Might... I'll be there in a second... just finishing off Shield of Faith... don't kill all the monsters... really, I'm on the way... oh, well, now I'd better start healing the fighter since the monsters ganged up on him while I was casting..."
Clanking around in the robot costume doesn't really help with the cleric's general response time either. It really sucks in a party full of monks and barbarians. We pretty much had to constantly use Fly spells to keep ours moving above a slow waddle.

 

[Creamsteak]

Clerics fine. Maybe... reluctantly... increase the bard's hit dice (though I sort of dread bards and rangers being equal combatants). Bards seem fine to me too, but I would be willing to be a "little" bit giving if someone playing a bard was having problems.

 

[Darklone]

does the magic vestment "enhancement armor bonus" stack with magical armor?
do the arcane spells stack with each other? with magical armor?

The clerics (yes, I usually have several) in my groups don't get magic armour. They spend their money on other nice things. Magic Vestment on Shield and armour, and the cleric does not need another armour boost. Or better: Against the few monsters that still hit him, a Shield of Faith will do the rest.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Cleric - IMC, I have removed "Heavy Armor Proficiency". I have also removed some spells that I felt were more in the druid's arena - Repel vermin, and Insect plague. I also placed the [evil] tag on Slay Living.

Insect Plague goes back to the quirky tradition of cleric spells being lifted from the Bible (Elijah casts Flame Strike, Moses casts Control Water, Chant, Create Food and Water, Sticks to Snakes, and probably a bunch more). Gotta have the plague of locusts.