How would you continue the design of the individual themes?

[YRUSirius]

That excerpt is from April. In playtest terms that's a loooooong time.

Bruce wrote in the new article that "as it stands currently right now in this iteration of the next d&d game" (phew), that you'll get a feat at 1st, 3rd, and 5th level, etc. This does seem to imply that there will be no feat at 6th level, ergo no 2nd theme at 6th level atleast. This might already prove how old the iteration from the April article is. It could mean that the 2nd theme COULD be chosen at 7th level (could mean 4 feats per theme) or later (11th level; meaning 5 feats, which sounds kinda better, non ).

Btw: I don't believe that the theme 'system' as a way to deliver feats has changed significantly. Only the concrete themes themselves evolved some more (Mystic became Magic-User, Leader may become Warlord?).

-YRUSirius

 

[YRUSirius]

So let's get creative: How would you design the magic user's 5th level feat "Flourish"? It must be easy to handle.

Flourish: Chose a signature spell (not a minor spell). If you cast this spell you either get advantage on the magic attack roll granted by the spell or your opponent gets disadvantage on his saving throw against the spell.

But what about buff spells like shield or debuff spells? Any easy way to handle this? I'm intrigued, that's why I like this kind of design speculation.

-YRUSirius

 

[jadrax]

You could make the spell count as always being a spell level higher, which in 5th seems like it will become pretty significant. However, I am not really sure that would count as a 'Florish'.

 

[Ratskinner]

That excerpt is from April. In playtest terms that's a loooooong time.

Oh, I agree. The whole things probably getting a minor overhaul right now, depending on what feedback they got and what they intend to try out with the next playtest iteration.

Bruce wrote in the new article that "as it stands currently right now in this iteration of the next d&d game" (phew), that you'll get a feat at 1st, 3rd, and 5th level, etc. This does seem to imply that there will be no feat at 6th level, ergo no 2nd theme at 6th level atleast. This might already prove how old the iteration from the April article is. It could mean that the 2nd theme COULD be chosen at 7th level (could mean 4 feats per theme) or later (11th level; meaning 5 feats, which sounds kinda better, non ).

Btw: I don't believe that the theme 'system' as a way to deliver feats has changed significantly. Only the concrete themes themselves evolved some more (Mystic became Magic-User, Leader may become Warlord?).

-YRUSirius

Dropping the whole "advanced theme" thing would be a significant change in my eyes. I'm not a fan of prestige classes, but "prestige themes" are something I could get behind. I don't put any real stock in having 5 vs 3 feats/theme. Actually, I think a lot of themes might have trouble coming up with 5 interesting feats (although an "Improved Electric Boogaloo" feat is always a possiblity, I guess.)

I'd be okay if Themes granted a non-feat bonus like a new skill bump or trait at 6th level. It would allow for some kind of advancement beyond just the feats, adding to the "background" as you advance. Although I'd like to see it in play before committing.

 

[YRUSirius]

I don't think that themes will grant access to skills, classes might (later levels or at level 1 like the rogue with its schemes). I believe that themes will only give access to feats. This way every mechanic gets it's clear 'delivery system'.

I do think that advanced themes (prestige themes) are still in it, but they might come a little bit later. I think giving them a bit later might give this next iteration a very clear tier system. Level 1 to 10 is for beginners with their basic theme and advanced players (level 11 to 20) can 'get advanced' with advanced themes. Seems pretty easy and simple to me.

I do think that themes will be created equal in that every theme will give the same amounts of feats. Because classes don't stop at say level 15. So why should themes have that arbitrary stop at 3 feats. Maybe a theme can even go the whole range of 20 levels giving 10 feats. I don't know, but level 10 themes (5 feats) seems okay to me too.

-YRUSirius

 

[Ratskinner]

Flourish: Chose a signature spell (not a minor spell). If you cast this spell you either get advantage on the magic attack roll granted by the spell or your opponent gets disadvantage on his saving throw against the spell.

That could work...I'm not sure what to do if the spell requires an attack roll and a saving throw, though. Maybe word it like so:

Spell Flourish: Choose a spell of third level or lower which you already know. You have advantage on attack rolls you make for this spell. Your targets are also at a disadvantage when saving against this spell.
​

But what about buff spells like shield or debuff spells? Any easy way to handle this? I'm intrigued, that's why I like this kind of design speculation.

Well, It could just be that some spells are bad choices. Nonetheless, your speculation above doesn't sound very "flourish"-y to me. How about:

Spell Flourish: Choose a third or lower level spell that you know. You may choose to cast this spell as a reaction. All other rules and properties of your spellcasting remain unchanged; for example, the spell still uses a spell slot.
​

Still not very "Flourish"-y....hmmmm how about this:

Spell Flourish
Your mastery of a particular spell allows you to manipulate it with great precision.
Benefit: Choose a spell you know which affects an area. You may choose to grant advantage or disadvantage to each affected creature's saving throw against this spell.

hmmm....I probably still wouldn't call that "flourish".

Spell Flourish
Your artistry shows through your magic. You have developed a style that affects the way your spells look and behave.
Benefit: Select a motif; such as bubbles, butterflies, bats, screaming sounds, a sulfurous smell, ghostly faces, etc. You may allow the sensory effects of your casting spells to take on this motif, which will be obvious to all observers. If you do, any dice you roll for such a spell (for damage, for instance) which roll less than half their maximum value yield half the maximum value instead. The duration of such spells is also increased by 50% (150% of instantaneous is instantaneous). The motif has no other impact.
Example: A Fireball is cast with a flower flourish. The flames erupt in the shapes of various blossoms. The caster rolls 5d6 and gets 2, 5, 4, 1, and 3. The 1 and 2 become 3s, yielding 15 points of damage instead of 12.

That sounds more like a "flourish" to me (although it seems kinda weak as well.)

 

[jadrax]

I do think that advanced themes (prestige themes) are still in it, but they might come a little bit later. I think giving them a bit later might give this next iteration a very clear tier system. Level 1 to 10 is for beginners with their basic theme and advanced players (level 11 to 20) can 'get advanced' with advanced themes.

I must admit, I really hope not. Having to wait until 6th level before you could be a Dwarvern Defender was kind of irritating but acceptable, waiting until 10th would be frankly annoying.

It also is annoying from a world building perspective, I don't really want barracks full of level 15 npcs just so I can explore the politics of a certain prestige class.

Ideally, most themes should start at level 1, unless they are pretty much a unique concept (e.g Archmage).

 

[jadrax]

That sounds more like a "flourish" to me (although it seems kinda weak as well.)

Yeah, I pretty much think spell-casters should get a Motif for free, although for divine casters they pretty much have to have the motif of their god.

 

[steeldragons]

Let's see what I can work out here...

Magic-user
1st lvl: 2 at-will cantrips [or rather +2 additional if you're already a mage]
3rd lvl: Find Familiar
5th lvl: 2 more at-will cantrips [4 total for non-mages]
7th lvl: Arcane Eyes: Use of Scrying magic items regardless of spell ability
9th lvl: Limited Crafter: Scribe scrolls & brew potions

 

[YRUSirius]

All the magic item creation feats are SO predestined to be a whole theme.



Scribe Scrolls as the 1st feat.

Brew Potions as the 2nd feat.

Forge Wondrous Items and wands/rods as 3rd feat.

Forge Magic Weapons as the 4th feat.

Forge Rings as the 5th feat.



Something like that.

-YRUSirius