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How Would You Design Fourth Edition?
- Thread starter Zamkaizer
- Start date
Fallen Seraph
First Post
Well this is more a list of things I would have in my perfect D&D since I am far, far, far from any kind of in-game mechanics wonder or even baffon 
-Alignment is replaced by Personality or a Morality System
-Social Powers alongside the Combat and Utility Powers; as I put in my thread.
-Sub-systems with Skills, ie: Thievery would have a subsystem which has: sleight of hand, lockpicking, disable trap, etc.
-A excellent chase-system/mounted system
-Interwoven combat-system, so something along the lines of a duel. Sorta like what Zamkaizer talked about with instantaneous actions.
-Rules variants included in DMG for low-magic, gritty, low-level campaigns
-Technology table, going from Medieval to Victorian.
-Healing Surges and/or Action Points having a negative effect along when overused.
Those are the big things I can think of right now.
-Alignment is replaced by Personality or a Morality System
-Social Powers alongside the Combat and Utility Powers; as I put in my thread.
-Sub-systems with Skills, ie: Thievery would have a subsystem which has: sleight of hand, lockpicking, disable trap, etc.
-A excellent chase-system/mounted system
-Interwoven combat-system, so something along the lines of a duel. Sorta like what Zamkaizer talked about with instantaneous actions.
-Rules variants included in DMG for low-magic, gritty, low-level campaigns
-Technology table, going from Medieval to Victorian.
-Healing Surges and/or Action Points having a negative effect along when overused.
Those are the big things I can think of right now.
If I was in charge 4th Edition would be a simple core system, based on the d20 idea but strongly class-based with abstract combat, and mostly compatible with previous editions of D&D. Something along the lines of C&C, but with skills, feats, and tactical-style combat available in the core book as optional add ons. I would not hard-code much fluff into the rules, but include optional rules to make the basic flavor more sword & sorcery, high fantasy, or anime-like as desired. I would simplify monsters back to something like what the stat-blocks looked like in Rules Cyclopedia D&D. The most important goals for me would be keeping the basic game simple, but capable of crunchy development, and also trying hard to make it all fit in a single rulebook.
Some rules ideas....
I would have 7 basic PC races:
Elves: The Charismatic race (+2 Chr, -1 Con, -1 Wis[they're impulsive])
Gnomes: The Intelligent Race (+2 Int, -2 Str)
Dwarves: The Strong Race (+2 Str, -2 Chr)
Halflings: The Dexterous Race (+2 Dex, -2 Str)
Reptilians or Serpent People: The Wise Race (+2 Wis, suffer extra damage from cold attacks), worship dragons, able to look like other races.
Woodwoses (Hairy Wild Men, like Sasquatches, Chewbacca, or Enkidu): The Sturdy Race. (+2 Con, -1 Int, -1 Chr).
Humans: No bonuses or penalties.
6 Basic Classes (which are for adventurers - ordinary people do not have PC classes):
Warrior: Based on Strength. Dwarves make the best Warriors. Only class with multiple attacks.
Wizards: Based on Intelligence. Gnomes make the best Wizards.
Fighting Clerics: Based on Wisdom. Serpent People make the best Fighting Clerics.
Thieves: Based on Dexterity. Halflings make the best Thieves.
Barbarians: Based on Constitution. Woodwoses make the best Barbarians.
Bards: Based on Charisma. Elves make the best Bards.
Humans are equally good at any class.
Other races (1/2 orcs and 1/2 elves) and classes (knights, martial artists, warrior-wizards, etc.) are optional. All class and ability names are as simple and self-explanatory as possible.
And shields would finally be able to fully block attacks, just like in real medieval combat!
Some rules ideas....
I would have 7 basic PC races:
Elves: The Charismatic race (+2 Chr, -1 Con, -1 Wis[they're impulsive])
Gnomes: The Intelligent Race (+2 Int, -2 Str)
Dwarves: The Strong Race (+2 Str, -2 Chr)
Halflings: The Dexterous Race (+2 Dex, -2 Str)
Reptilians or Serpent People: The Wise Race (+2 Wis, suffer extra damage from cold attacks), worship dragons, able to look like other races.
Woodwoses (Hairy Wild Men, like Sasquatches, Chewbacca, or Enkidu): The Sturdy Race. (+2 Con, -1 Int, -1 Chr).
Humans: No bonuses or penalties.
6 Basic Classes (which are for adventurers - ordinary people do not have PC classes):
Warrior: Based on Strength. Dwarves make the best Warriors. Only class with multiple attacks.
Wizards: Based on Intelligence. Gnomes make the best Wizards.
Fighting Clerics: Based on Wisdom. Serpent People make the best Fighting Clerics.
Thieves: Based on Dexterity. Halflings make the best Thieves.
Barbarians: Based on Constitution. Woodwoses make the best Barbarians.
Bards: Based on Charisma. Elves make the best Bards.
Humans are equally good at any class.
Other races (1/2 orcs and 1/2 elves) and classes (knights, martial artists, warrior-wizards, etc.) are optional. All class and ability names are as simple and self-explanatory as possible.
And shields would finally be able to fully block attacks, just like in real medieval combat!
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My Ideal System
I think I'd make it a rules-light system along the lines of True 20 and D&D miniatures but with leveling and items. I'd get rid of attributes and instead focus on the scores that actually matter during gameplay. I'd force skill trees and base them on level. I'd set up feat trees but let players veer off.
During combat, no character would have more than about four to six options. They can switch these out from about a total of twelve options between combat. I want an entire game that can be done out of people's heads instead of looking at books.
I'd simplify combat a lot, like they did with Miniatures. Get rid of most of the status effects and simplify cover rules.
My idea is pretty draconian and not likely to impress a lot of people so they're probably better off doing what they're doing. Right now I just want to see 4th edition.
I think I'd make it a rules-light system along the lines of True 20 and D&D miniatures but with leveling and items. I'd get rid of attributes and instead focus on the scores that actually matter during gameplay. I'd force skill trees and base them on level. I'd set up feat trees but let players veer off.
During combat, no character would have more than about four to six options. They can switch these out from about a total of twelve options between combat. I want an entire game that can be done out of people's heads instead of looking at books.
I'd simplify combat a lot, like they did with Miniatures. Get rid of most of the status effects and simplify cover rules.
My idea is pretty draconian and not likely to impress a lot of people so they're probably better off doing what they're doing. Right now I just want to see 4th edition.
I really like most of what they're doing with 4e. I love the class powers system they're using. It makes class design really modular.
That being said, there are three changes I'd likely make.
First, I wouldn't use action points. Not because I have anything against them, but rather because I haven't got anything FOR them.
Second, I'd kill some more sacred cows. For example, chromatic dragons need to die. They are the epitome of bland, paint by numbers monster design. By freeing dragon design from the color wheel, there would be room for dragons designed based on ecological niche, which I think would be much better.
Third, I'd move to make lightly armored swashbuckling types a little more viable. I don't like them being permanently attached to the rogue. I'd probably include an actual swashbuckler class, and I'd sit down and make sure there were at least some positives to each of the following weapons load outs:
Two handed weapon
One handed weapon + shield
One handed weapon + one handed weapon
One handed weapon.
Each of these should have some advantage. For the single one handed weapon, I'd want ways to take advantage of the empty off hand, perhaps by partial grappling.
That being said, there are three changes I'd likely make.
First, I wouldn't use action points. Not because I have anything against them, but rather because I haven't got anything FOR them.
Second, I'd kill some more sacred cows. For example, chromatic dragons need to die. They are the epitome of bland, paint by numbers monster design. By freeing dragon design from the color wheel, there would be room for dragons designed based on ecological niche, which I think would be much better.
Third, I'd move to make lightly armored swashbuckling types a little more viable. I don't like them being permanently attached to the rogue. I'd probably include an actual swashbuckler class, and I'd sit down and make sure there were at least some positives to each of the following weapons load outs:
Two handed weapon
One handed weapon + shield
One handed weapon + one handed weapon
One handed weapon.
Each of these should have some advantage. For the single one handed weapon, I'd want ways to take advantage of the empty off hand, perhaps by partial grappling.
Vradna
First Post
mshea said:
Yeah. Gotta agree with the True20 part (Be careful what you wish for mshea, I see a lot of WARHAMMER QUEST boardgame in this new edition, though I am not saying that is a bad thing...). True20 -as an example- provides a good basis for a roleplaying system that can be made a complex or as simple as any group of gamers like. The math is also transparent, so it is possible to reverse engineer the basic three classes and then make your own, thereby giving anyone the ability to play the character they want right off the cuff without having to mash multiple classes together.
So how would I make 4th Edition? My first step would be to employ Steve Kenson. The man is a jeen-yus
Darrin Drader
Explorer
Many of the changes I would make would be on the back end to make designing stuff like monsters and NPCs less tedious.
- Stats are point buy and you choose your modifiers. 3-18 would be dead because other than character generation, those numbers are pretty meaningless.
- Same core races as 3E.
- Class features are all gone completely as are prestige classes. The path you take is determined by the feats you choose, not by an archetype. You would start with 4 feats and then you would get 1 feat per level after that.
- Psionics would be core.
- Epic would be core, but it would be vastly different. The problem with epic as written is that it doesn't recognize the truth of diminishing returns. The fact is that people generally hit a certain point in skill at which point they're at a plateau. You would not suddenly start getting gonzo powers once you've hit an arbitrary point. In fact, you would really slow down to the point where advancement would be barely noticeable from level to level.
- Power progression would be slowed way down to the point where you wouldn't hit whatever is passing for "epic" until around level 40 or 50.
- Designing monsters would be easier. You would simply design the monster the way you want it rather than having to conform to a bunch of rules on the back end. Variable hit dice and saving throws would not be based on type, but rather creature concept.
- Death and dying would be replaced by a system that holds up better at higher levels. The one Monte came up with in the Book of Experimental Might would be a good candidate.
- Attacks of opportunity would only be triggered by moving in a foolish way, or taking an action that disengages you from combat, such as drinking a potion. It would not be the balance for every special attack in the PHB.
- Grappling would be greatly simplified.
- The implied setting would be fully developed in an optional 4th core rulebook.
- Care would be taken to make all feats for nonmagical classes as realistic as possible so as to bring the game back in line as a "simulation" rather than a "game."
- Magic items would not be a factor in advancement. Rather, guidelines would be given on how to adjust challenges based on the amount of magic carried by the party members.
That's all off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more I'm just not thinking of right now.
- Stats are point buy and you choose your modifiers. 3-18 would be dead because other than character generation, those numbers are pretty meaningless.
- Same core races as 3E.
- Class features are all gone completely as are prestige classes. The path you take is determined by the feats you choose, not by an archetype. You would start with 4 feats and then you would get 1 feat per level after that.
- Psionics would be core.
- Epic would be core, but it would be vastly different. The problem with epic as written is that it doesn't recognize the truth of diminishing returns. The fact is that people generally hit a certain point in skill at which point they're at a plateau. You would not suddenly start getting gonzo powers once you've hit an arbitrary point. In fact, you would really slow down to the point where advancement would be barely noticeable from level to level.
- Power progression would be slowed way down to the point where you wouldn't hit whatever is passing for "epic" until around level 40 or 50.
- Designing monsters would be easier. You would simply design the monster the way you want it rather than having to conform to a bunch of rules on the back end. Variable hit dice and saving throws would not be based on type, but rather creature concept.
- Death and dying would be replaced by a system that holds up better at higher levels. The one Monte came up with in the Book of Experimental Might would be a good candidate.
- Attacks of opportunity would only be triggered by moving in a foolish way, or taking an action that disengages you from combat, such as drinking a potion. It would not be the balance for every special attack in the PHB.
- Grappling would be greatly simplified.
- The implied setting would be fully developed in an optional 4th core rulebook.
- Care would be taken to make all feats for nonmagical classes as realistic as possible so as to bring the game back in line as a "simulation" rather than a "game."
- Magic items would not be a factor in advancement. Rather, guidelines would be given on how to adjust challenges based on the amount of magic carried by the party members.
That's all off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more I'm just not thinking of right now.
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3catcircus
Adventurer
1. I'd use the "D20" mechanics that were used in Twilight:2000 v2/2.2.
2. I'd also adopt the TW:2K v2/2.2 initiative system.
3. Psionics non-core and as per Shadowforce Archer (feats/skills vice "magic using mana points, but not.")
4. No prestige classes. For things that truly warranted it, I'd use substitution levels.
5. Simplify the skills as per SWSE.
6. Pare down the feats - there are multiple feats that do similar/the same things. Weapon group proficiencies vice individual weapons for martial/simple weapons.
7. Arcana Unearthed-style or HARP-style magic.
8. A new "low-magic" pseudo-Western European Medieval campaign setting as stock (something akin to Harn).
9. Re-publish some of the "classic" campaign settings as 320-page all-in-one books (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Kara-Tur to start).
10. Include a realistic economy and a realistic means of simulating buying/selling (license MMS:WE?)
11. A decent chase system (similar to Spycraft or D20 Chases).
12. Provide concrete information on non-combat XP awards.
13. No more "generic" magic items. *All* magic items are rare and have a history associated with them - give them the Weapons of Legacy treatment (or, at the very least, an Ancestral Daisho-style treatment from OA).
14. No "Epic levels vs. Peon levels." Infinite level advancement should be available so that DMs can design their homebrews to be anywhere from low-magic "Pink Eye" campaigns all the way to Exalted or Lords of Creation or anywhere in between.
2. I'd also adopt the TW:2K v2/2.2 initiative system.
3. Psionics non-core and as per Shadowforce Archer (feats/skills vice "magic using mana points, but not.")
4. No prestige classes. For things that truly warranted it, I'd use substitution levels.
5. Simplify the skills as per SWSE.
6. Pare down the feats - there are multiple feats that do similar/the same things. Weapon group proficiencies vice individual weapons for martial/simple weapons.
7. Arcana Unearthed-style or HARP-style magic.
8. A new "low-magic" pseudo-Western European Medieval campaign setting as stock (something akin to Harn).
9. Re-publish some of the "classic" campaign settings as 320-page all-in-one books (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Kara-Tur to start).
10. Include a realistic economy and a realistic means of simulating buying/selling (license MMS:WE?)
11. A decent chase system (similar to Spycraft or D20 Chases).
12. Provide concrete information on non-combat XP awards.
13. No more "generic" magic items. *All* magic items are rare and have a history associated with them - give them the Weapons of Legacy treatment (or, at the very least, an Ancestral Daisho-style treatment from OA).
14. No "Epic levels vs. Peon levels." Infinite level advancement should be available so that DMs can design their homebrews to be anywhere from low-magic "Pink Eye" campaigns all the way to Exalted or Lords of Creation or anywhere in between.
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I'd need to take a lot of time to decide what everything I'd want in a new edition is - because, well, designing a new RPG system, even if it's an update of an old engine, takes time and effort, but one of the things I think I'd sit down and seriously consider bringing in would be some revival of the saving throw system from pre-3e D&D.
No, not the five weird categories of saving throws - those are gone for a good reason - but rather the idea of saving throws just being numbers you have to roll over in order to avoid a bad thing happening to you. To its detriment, it detracts from everything using the same "higher is better" logic, but I think it's a system that can quite possibly produce more fun results in play: at low levels, characters will be unlikely to pass saving throws, but the penalties for failing a saving throw will typically only put you out of the fight at worst, not kill you by themselves.
Given that before this current 4th edition, taking a greatsword hit or whatnot at first level both put you out of the fight and killed you, and greatswords are effectively "save or die" effects at first level, I'd be fine with that.
At higher levels, however, the scaling would start to change - you would start passing all saving throws more and more often. As such, death spells and such become things that you use on people who suck, by and large, and damage spells, which typically inflict damage even on a successful save, become the order of the day, rather than "save or die" effects.
No, not the five weird categories of saving throws - those are gone for a good reason - but rather the idea of saving throws just being numbers you have to roll over in order to avoid a bad thing happening to you. To its detriment, it detracts from everything using the same "higher is better" logic, but I think it's a system that can quite possibly produce more fun results in play: at low levels, characters will be unlikely to pass saving throws, but the penalties for failing a saving throw will typically only put you out of the fight at worst, not kill you by themselves.
Given that before this current 4th edition, taking a greatsword hit or whatnot at first level both put you out of the fight and killed you, and greatswords are effectively "save or die" effects at first level, I'd be fine with that.
At higher levels, however, the scaling would start to change - you would start passing all saving throws more and more often. As such, death spells and such become things that you use on people who suck, by and large, and damage spells, which typically inflict damage even on a successful save, become the order of the day, rather than "save or die" effects.
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