D&D 5E How would you do the sword mage in 5e?

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
My point stands. Of all the things 5E doesnt need, its another Gish.

We have more of them in this edition than ever before.
Your point ignores what people are actually asking for, and fails utterly to address the point of the topic.

5e has no dedicated, full-time arcane gish.

It has a plethora of half measure subclasses that are about as much gish as the Eldritch Knight or the cleric is a mage.

An actual gish character is actively doing gish stuff in the majority of scenes in every adventure.

Being able to kitbash together a multiclass build with reflavoring and a little bit of houseruling doesn’t mean there is an actual gish in the game.
 

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Voadam

Legend
Also, I would say Vortex Warp is pretty close to Aegis of Ensnarement and Misty step combined with an attack or blade cantrip is identical to Aegis of Assault.
Not quite on the misty step attack being identical.

You miss out on a couple aspects of Aegis of Assault.

First they are marked. My viking swordmage is so intimidating that if they take their focus off me to attack anyone else, they feel me over their shoulder ready to pounce and so they have a -2 on their attack. Because yeah, I am ready to pounce on any opening with a blade to the back.

Second, Misty Step is a bonus action, not a reaction. The Swordmage gets a full attack on their turn then gets to Aegis of Assault on the opponent's turn as another attack.

Actually third, it does not cost the swordmage a second level spell to use it, it is a class feature that does not require expending limited resources to use.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Except that it isn't: "gish" is a generic category that covers a wide variety of things, and "swordmage" is not 1:1 synonymous with that category, for the same reason that "holy person" covers both Cleric and Paladin, but neither Cleric nor Paladin is identical to "swordmage."

Yes, you can build a mage who uses a sword using the rules as written.

You cannot build anything even remotely like a 4e Swordmage using the rules as written.

The two are not the same.
IMO, no 5e class is remotely like it's 4e counterpart.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Flipping through the FR Player's Guide I found:

Hell’s Own Blade Swordmage Attack 19
You hurl your sword, and it buries itself into the chest of a distant foe. Your sword explodes, sending waves of roiling flame out in all directions, before reforming in your hand.
Daily ✦ Arcane, Fire, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged 10
Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Intelligence modifier fire damage.
Effect: Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Targets: The primary target and each enemy within 2 squares of it
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d8 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.
Miss: Half damage.

It seems familiar, I think I had it when I was playing epic.

I believe that is a spell, not a class ability.
 

Voadam

Legend
I believe that is a spell, not a class ability.
All spells are class specific abilities in 4e. It is a level 19 daily attack power of the swordmage. It is the direct equivalent of a 4e fighter level 19 daily attack power (a martial attack power). Daily attack powers are generally one big attack, one OK attack with a rider power that lasts the whole encounter (a sword mage magically setting their blade on fire for the fight, or a fighter entering a martial stance), or a power that is not expended on a miss.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
How would I make a "sword mage" in 5E? Well, I've built two of them: the first was an Oath of Ancients Paladin, and the second was a Hexblade Warlock (Pact of the Blade).

They were both a lot of fun, and I'd recommend them to anyone who wants to play the stereotypical Armored Spellcaster With A Sword character.
The armored spell-blade character is doable in 5e, loosely. Paladin is wildly too bound to its flavor, IMO, to ever be a gish. Not to mention that so many players can’t get past the erroneous idea that divine smite is a better use of a spell slot than any spell ever.

The Warlock does a decent job, but as far as gish characters go, it’s basically a 5e class with no subclasses, a warlock offshoot with no pact boon choice, and a deceptively on rails character who can’t afford to make any off-brief choices.




A question on this, and I am not being snarky - what 4e Swordmage ability allows you to do this? I did not play 4E a lot and never played a Swordmage, but I see a lot of people talk about this thing, but don't see it on any of the Swordmage class abilities.

That said, Ice Knife does most of this, except it is a knife instead of a sword and does not come back to you.
It’s close, and hey great there is one spell that does a similar thing. Cool, it should be on the swordmage’s spell list.
Cause Fear. Prevents enemies from approaching you at all.
Which does nothing for your allies, and is just casting a spell on an enemy. Wrathful Smite is closer, but it would fairly simple to just create 5e mechanics that actually let you protect your allies and punish enemies that attack them. The resistance to the idea is utterly bizarre.

Also, I would say Vortex Warp is pretty close to Aegis of Ensnarement and Misty step combined with an attack or blade cantrip is identical to Aegis of Assault.
Far from identical. Barely similar. Maybe not having played the swordmage is causing an understandable misunderstanding.

The Aegis mechanics allowed you to punish and/or protect both actively (penalty to enemy attacks with mark on attack) and reactively. The reaction was at least as important as the specific mechanics.

5e has few reaction teleports, and all that I can think of are about getting away from an attacker, not protecting an ally.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I believe that is a spell, not a class ability.
In 4e, powers are class specific. They're class features.

But why does that even matter?



@ thread:

Now, I do think the warlock is close enough that you can use it to fairly easily build an actual Hexblade class out of it, with variants of all the patrons but with more weapon-combat oriented abilities, less advanced Spellcasting in exchange for extra attack and martial weapons, higher HD, built in option of defense mechanics (ie either armor proficiencies or level 1 armor of shadows), and then tweak until you’ve got a proper Hexblade that still has choices within that concept. Thematically similar to the 4e HExblade, but designed fully to be a good 5e class.

Likewise the Artificer, Paladin, and Ranger can be used as inspiration to build an arcane half-caster on a more traditional chassis.

The Bladesinger can be beefed up and rebuilt as if the Bladesinger stuff was the base class, and probably be pretty cool.

Or we could take all the kinda-gish options in the game, dissect them, look at older editions and D&D clones and 3pp/homebrew at places like DMsGuild and the homebrew subreddits, and build a fully fleshed out swordmage (or other name so folks don’t insist on trying to recreate the 4e class directly rather than just making a good 5e class) with a secondary option like warlocks and UA clerics have that determines whether your Aegis is personal, protective, or something else.

So, what I'd probably do if I had a player that really wanted to play a swordmage:

Basics: d10 HD, martial weapons, light armor

Spellcasting at level 1, either like artificer or a half-caster pact magic variant. Same spell slots (half the slots just wouldn't be functional), but half caster spell level progression. 1 Spell slot and 2 cantrips is doable at level 1. You have a spellbook like a wizard. It's in the name.

Rather than better armor proficiency and shields, you get something like the bladesong, with a bonded weapon that you can summon as a bonus action, and returns to you if you throw it as an attack. This is your big tier 1 class feature.

Secondary choice (like pact boons) at level 1, which are each an Aegis but not all make you a "defender", and this is tied in with how your primary feature functions. The Aegis has active and limited abilities that probably come online at level 2, and possibly upgrade in some way or scale in number of uses as you level in the class. ie, your punishment is probably PB/LR or 1/SR, rather than at-will, but your mark ability is at-will.

Drop spellcasting back to level 2 if necessary, or maybe have cantrips and rituals but no spell slot at level 1, to keep in balance. The aegis and swordbond kinda need to be level 1, in some form.

Maybe the choice at level 1 is between different marks, actually, and your defensive magic is just called your aegis. Mark of Retribution lets you attack enemies who attack your ally, and later you gain an aura that automatically deals damage to enemies who attack allies within the aura. Mark of Death is like Hexblade's Curse, increasing your crit chance and maybe giving an extra way to get advantage. The idea is you get some swordmage juice at level 1, and your divine smite type power boost comes in later but ties into the level 1 choice of mark or aegis or whatever.

Level 2 something like Vestiges or some such, basically overlapping with Invocations and Infusions. Some key off your aegis, so you can hard-focus on your mark-punishment tankiness, or the aegis choice that makes you more mage-like, or the one that makes you harder to pin down and play almost like a 4e Avenger. others are the sorts of things warlock invocations do or are special items or weapon enchantments that make your bonded weapon gain extra magic weapon traits, etc.

level 3 is your actual subclass, based on esoteric orders. This is separate from the aegis and mark dynamic, and gives bonus spells, and features, that promote differnt playstyles and thematic identities but all tie into the idea of mysterious orders of esoteric knowledge blending magic and martial skill. Swordmages are hermetic occult nerds, basically.

You get extra attack at level 5, and an aura that is flavored as extending your aegis to protect allies or harm enemies or whatever at level 6 or 7

Because you are getting new spell levels at half the rate of a warlock, there is more room to play in the non-spell space of the class, but spells shoulnd't be neglected. New spells that support the idea of a Swordmage (and stealth upgrade other gish options with access to arcane spells in the process) are key.

Spell ideas:

Throw sword, it's flies in an arc applying your melee weapon attack to 3 enemies, plus 1 for every spell level above 2nd.

Throw sword, it explodes dealing magical slashing damage and potentially blinding enemies, then reforms in your hand.

Sword turns into a streak of lightning, dealing okay damage in a line to a target, you teleport to the target, and your next attack against them deals extra lightning damage.

Your sword's shadow animates and flies around stabbing people (duration 1 minute with concentration)

Your sword duplicates over and over again creating a circle of whirling blades around you

Your weapon strikes the ground, sinks in and disapears, and then the ground around you grows spikes that cut and pierce for minor damage, and slow enemies movements, but ignore allies. (higher level spell here)

Aegis/mark ideas:

Your marked enemy grants advantage to your allies' attacks

You can move more or teleport or something that makes it impossible for a marked enemy to escape you

You carry a spellbook in your off hand, and gain extra spells, or similar, but either way you can use the book as an arcane focus and don't need a free hand to cast somatic spells while weilding it.

Your mark harms the enemy whenever they move more than 10 feet in a direction that takes them away from you, or hit a creature other than you.

You can teleport to your marked target if they are more than 5 feet away from you at the start of your turn, with distance scaling by level.

I'm tired, but I had ideas earlier for tying the choice feature into your not-bladesong.


Very much a hybrid warlock/monk/4e avenger/4e swordmage class.

Maybe 3-5 level 1 choices, basically promoting the Defender, skirmisher, lurker, swordMage, and the duelist.

Orders are things like Order of The White Well - fey themed spell-blade duelist meets knight errant on a quest from a magical Lady met in the wilderness.

Order of The Shadowed Dawn - Creepy shadow cultist swordmaster with stuff like animating your shadow to fight beside you.
 

They do have the magic weapon weapon spell which is absolutely cast on your weapon and then hit with it and they also have Spirit Shroud.

Bladesinger and EK also have the blade cantrips which are generally more powerful than the smite spells; considering they do comparable damage in tier 2 and more damage in tier 3 without using a spell slot.
Cool. Look at the amazing awesomeness of making your weapon +1.

Rather than knocking people down with shockwaves, making them scared and run away, ensnaring them in vines, and more. Both of which the paladin and ranger do with their spells cast through their weapons.

I tried playing fire genasi eldritch knight once. I hated it so much that at lvl 8, the DM let me rebuild my character. Swapped the Int and Wis scores. And switched to forge cleric. Loved that character from then on.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Remember how I said I'd do it, last night? Here's how I'd add more options to it:


<3
 

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