D&D 5E How would you do the sword mage in 5e?

[NotAYakk]

Give them a Int-to-hit and a +3 AC when unarmored, take the Psimari and Quandrix discarded UA features as part of the main class chassis, with a Ward much like the Ancestral Spirit Barbarian's.

4e swordmages where perfectly happy in light armor. It was the Avenger that was unarmored.

Their ward does replace a shield, however.

4e swordmages had both their aegis and an option to swap between 1H and 2H. The weapon choice was relatively under supported, but there was some support.

4e paragon paths where fun.

I might make Aegis not a subclass, but a feature pick (like "book of shadows" for warlocks). And have subclasses be more along the paragon path direction.

 

[Flamestrike]

You cannot build anything even remotely like a 4e Swordmage using the rules as written.

Yes, you can.

 

[Staffan]

Yes, you can.

Really? Just look at their first-level powers. They should be pretty basic and easy to do, right, even if the systems work a bit differently?

First, take the encounter powers:

• Chilling Blow: Deals weapon damage and then some extra damage every time the target attacks until the start of your next turn.
• Flame Cyclone: A short-range AOE dealing fire damage. OK, this is fairly close to burning hands.
• Foesnare: Deal weapon damage and immobilize the target until the start of your next turn.
• Lightning Clash: Hit one target for weapon damage, and then another nearby target with a minor lightning bolt.

Or the more powerful daily powers:

• Burning Blade: Strong weapon attack, adds a continuing effect that deals extra fire damage on subsequent attacks.
• Frost Backlash: Reaction, when hit make a very strong weapon attack that also has a much better attack chance.
• Whirling Blade: Throw your weapon at a target at short range, making a strong weapon attack with it. On a miss, try for a second, third, or fourth target. Then the weapon returns to your hand.

Other than Flame Cyclone basically being burning hands, there's nothing a fighter/mage, eldritch knight, hexblade, or bladesinger can do that's close to these. The options available in 5e are for characters who sometimes fight and sometimes cast spells, but there's nothing for someone who fights with magic.

 

[Voadam]

Really? Just look at their first-level powers. They should be pretty basic and easy to do, right, even if the systems work a bit differently?

First, take the encounter powers:

• Chilling Blow: Deals weapon damage and then some extra damage every time the target attacks until the start of your next turn.
• Flame Cyclone: A short-range AOE dealing fire damage. OK, this is fairly close to burning hands.
• Foesnare: Deal weapon damage and immobilize the target until the start of your next turn.
• Lightning Clash: Hit one target for weapon damage, and then another nearby target with a minor lightning bolt.

Or the more powerful daily powers:

• Burning Blade: Strong weapon attack, adds a continuing effect that deals extra fire damage on subsequent attacks.
• Frost Backlash: Reaction, when hit make a very strong weapon attack that also has a much better attack chance.
• Whirling Blade: Throw your weapon at a target at short range, making a strong weapon attack with it. On a miss, try for a second, third, or fourth target. Then the weapon returns to your hand.

Other than Flame Cyclone basically being burning hands, there's nothing a fighter/mage, eldritch knight, hexblade, or bladesinger can do that's close to these. The options available in 5e are for characters who sometimes fight and sometimes cast spells, but there's nothing for someone who fights with magic.

I'd focus instead on the defender role core mechanics of the sword mage rather than their dailies which change across levels.

The teleport to attack those who don't target the sword mage is not something I see in 5e.

There is the 4e shield mage arcane shield thing to block some hp damage on others which you can sort of do mechanically with the interception fighting style.

At will swordmage things, lightning lure is a cantrip in 5e as is greenflame blade.

 

[ECMO3]

Because the Bladesigner, as a melee class, comes off as underpowered when the focus is on the melee capability - primarily because it is hard to elevate damage and maintain defenses due to all of the restrictions on concentration.

From a math point of view, this was true with the SCAG bladesinger, but it is no longer true with the new version of the bladesinger extra attack. At 5th level a bladesingers attack action is landing an extra d8, at 11th level 2d8, at 14th an extra 2d8+2xInt and at 17th an extra 3d8+2xInt. That is before you consider secondary damage which is easy to land as a bladesinger if you are using Blur or PEG against an enemy that is effected by it (or for that matter Haste).

In addition to the above, when caluclating damage with blur or PEG you also have to also consider that AOOs against you do not matter because when combined with shield or silverybarbs, they will almost never land in tier 1 or tier 2. This means you can move at will and force the enemy to move or give up on attack actions. Usually (not always) you are going to land secondary cantrip damage if you are a bladesinger using extra attack with booming blade and blur up. That is another 1d8 at low levels and 2d8 in levels 5-8. If you use Shadow Blade or Hex or Spirit Shroud or something like that you will do the same or less damage, while getting hit more often.

From a straight math point of view it is not underpowered. In play the thing that really makes it underpowered in melee on the base class is the lack of weapon proficiencies and inability to use strength-based weapons if you play with point buy. This puts you in a situation where, using only the class options, you can't use most of the magic weapons you find well unless it is the one you picked with training in war and song. The same thing is true with a lot of power melee builds using Great Weapon Master or Pole Arm Master, they tie you to a very small number of weapons to make them work well.

You can fix this with race though on a Bladesinger. Playing a Drow gives you the exact weapon proficiencies you want (as does playing another class with weapon proficiencies and switching them to what the Drow gets). This makes your weapon selection as good as any Dex melee character. Likewise playing a V. human or custom and taking weapon master at 1st level to boost dexterity also gives you the weapons you want without putting you behind on the ASI tree. Finally, it is fixable if the DM lets you buy magic weapons, which allows you to just buy the exact weapons you need.

Blur reduces the damage you take. That reduction only matters in D&D if you would have gone down in combat without it.

In tier 1 and tier 2 blur or PEG combined with shield and bladesong nearly eliminates the damage you take from attacks. In tier 3 it severely reduces it.

It is not uncommon for a bladesinger to be in a position where an enemy needs a double 20 (20 with disadvantage) after you already put up a shield in order to hit a bladesinger. If you have not put up shield yet, even that roll is going to probably miss due to silvery barbs.

Blur or PEG will cut the damage you take in teir 2 by about 90% and if you are always in melee, that will matter unless you have other characters that are going to heal you or have spare actions to spend drinking healing potions.

Also Blur does not only reduce the damage you take, it stops you from being effected by hits and those effects are even more dangerous. I am talking about things like being engulfed by a Shambling Mound or Being Swallowed by a Purple Worm or even being poisoned by a lowly Imp. Those kinds of effects are devestating in melee, but they require a hit to land.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm guessing somebody already beat me to it (in which case, post here), but I'm curious.

I really liked the idea of a dedicated gish class and was wondering what it would need.

I got some ideas, but want to see what people say first.

I’ve explored a few models.

One was to take the monk, give it ritual casting, change wisdom to Int, allow everything to work with a single weapon you’ve bonded to you. Then, give it a spell list (half-caster round up) and spells cost 1 ki per spell level.

Then I made some custom spells, an Aegis that lets them use deflect missiles against any attack, and replaced martials arts and flurry with a spell attack, ranged or melee, 1d6+Int damage of a chosen element. Oh, and renamed ki to Aether.
Basically rebuild the monk.

The other way I’ve explored is based more on the warlock, and inspired by the Abhorsen books and by 20th Century esoteric mystery cult occultism.
Not a lot done on this one. Different spell list, replace pact boon with ritual tools, replace Eldritch blast with Eldritch Weapon, which is just a force damage weapon you use Int to attack with, extra attack at level 5, half-caster spell level progression.

 

[Staffan]

I'd focus instead on the defender role core mechanics of the sword mage rather than their dailies which change across levels.

The teleport to attack those who don't target the sword mage is not something I see in 5e.

There is the 4e shield mage arcane shield thing to block some hp damage on others which you can sort of do mechanically with the interception fighting style.

At will swordmage things, lightning lure is a cantrip in 5e as is greenflame blade.

The important part of a swordmage is that martial and arcane skill are integrated. Every swing they make is a spell. You get some of this with the SCAG cantrips, but on the whole 5e has nothing that comes close to it.

And I don't just mean the 4e swordmages. Other good role models are WOW's enhancement shamans and (to some degree) death knights, or benders (Avatar, not the robot) - though they're a bit monk-y (too bad the Way of the Elements monk is, as they say, bad). Or Thor (though he's a bit focused on the lightning bit).

 

[Voadam]

The important part of a swordmage is that martial and arcane skill are integrated. Every swing they make is a spell.

Not quite every swing. Their at will attack powers, encounter attacks, and daily attacks were all spells using weapon attacks, so a lot of swings that were spells, but they still had non-spell basic attacks.

The 4e Swordmage feature aegis of assault allows you to make a basic attack as your foundational defender power, not a spell weapon attack.

Aegis of Assault Swordmage Feature
You create an arcane link between you and a foe, allowing you to instantly respond to its attacks with a counterassault.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Teleportation
Minor Action Close burst 2
Target: One creature in burst
Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target. If you mark other creatures using other powers, the target is still marked. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
If your marked target makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls. If that attack hits and the marked target is within 10 squares of you, you can use an immediate reaction to teleport to a square adjacent to the target and make a melee basic attack against it. If no unoccupied space exists adjacent to the target, you can’t use this immediate reaction.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The teleport to attack those who don't target the sword mage is not something I see in 5e.

Reaction spell could work.

But really I think the 4e mark and punish mechanics work fine in 5e. At-will teleports are rare, and never tier 1, but a limited use reaction teleport-and-attack could work.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Reaction spell could work.

But really I think the 4e mark and punish mechanics work fine in 5e. At-will teleports are rare, and never tier 1, but a limited use reaction teleport-and-attack could work.

There are mark punishment effects? There are marks that don't require begging the DM to enable you first?