If feel like everything you wrote there is the opposite of a nerf and Boosts the wizard even more. Of the wizard's problems, "does too much damage" is the least.
D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +
- Thread starter Reynard
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ezo
Hero
It wasn't the height of the wizard's power. I hear people talk about the LFQW issue, but there never was one IME. Wizard's were powerful, but had all sorts of survival issues, especially pathetic HP. I recall an archmage in a game with 40 hit points, because he didn't have a 15+ CON, so no bonus hp. Meanwhile, the fighter in the group had roughly 100 hit points, and a much better AC, and better saves.
Either way, to answer your question -- both. It is a serious check, coupled with other checks, such as learning spells, low hp, etc. Playing a wizard from levels 1-6 or so was hard! Your chance of survival was pathetic, and barely improved afterwards.
It was also the intellectual challenge of spell selection from what you had. What would you need for the day, etc.? You didn't have the sort of versatility we see in 5E wizards with non-Vancian casting and automatic spell selection when leveling.
Finally, IME a big issue was also ability scores. Let's face it: most groups either cheated on rolls, rolled several sets, etc. If you roll, your expected array was something like 16, 14, 13, 12 , 10, 9. Races usually had just a +1 / -1 adjustment to two scores. So, unless you rolled very lucky, your 16 went into your prime requisite for the 10% xp bonus, and you might have a second score that really gave you a bonus (i.e. a 15 or better).
I mean, if I used the expect array for a magic-user in AD&D, my scores would likely be:
STR 9
INT 17*
WIS 10
CON 11*
DEX 15*
CHA 13
*I make an gray-elf magic-user/thief or something, getting an extra +1 INT to go with my elven +1 DEX, -1 CON.
My AC is 6 (leather and +1 DEX) and I have 3 hp. I also have ONE prepared spell for the entire day. I talk to the DM to find out what spells I begin with in my spellbook. He references the chart in the DMG:
I roll 8, 10, 4. So I'll have read magic (automatic), shocking grasp, find familiar, and choose spider climb for my defensive spell since I rolled a 10.
The DM is generous and says I can make a roll for a familiar and he'll wave the 100 gp fee this time. I roll a 9, getting a screech owl. The DM rolls 1d3+1 and gets 3 hit points for my familiar. If it is within 12" of me, my hit points are 6! Count them, 6! hit points.
Of course, if my familiar dies (AC 7) before I level up for more hp-- it'll kill me as well since I permanently lose double the hp (I go from my normal 3 hp to -3.... yeah, dead...).
Finally, assuming I make it to a reasonable amount of xp, say 36,500 for each class, I'd be 6/6 levels (thanks to my 10% xp bonus for my magic-user). Well, that is another 5d4 and 5d6 hit points... divided by 2, which averages 15 more hit points, bringing my total to 18 at 6/6 level. By comparison, at 73,000 xp, a fighter would be well into 8th level (closer to 9th than 7th!). Assuming I use my 16 for STR and 14 in CON with a +1 bonus for race, the fighter would average 52 hit points-- nearly triple my M-U/T's 18 (21 if my familiar was still alive, or 12 if he died along the way).
Ok, enough, right? It isn't just vancian casting that balanced out the M-U in AD&D, but everything that goes along with it --let's not forget how spellcasting worked with initiative back then! So sure, if you found the best spells, and if you learned them, you could be pretty powerful---if you had them prepared, that is, and still had the slots to cast them, and didn't get hit while casting them.
Zardnaar
Legend
I think it's mostly obscure so most people don't see it.
I bet if it was in the phb more people would hate it.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I mean...literally anyone could cast rituals from a scroll in 4e...and anyone could do actual rituals with a feat. Something you eventually got like 16 of. So giving up just one was far less of a cost than giving up one of the five you normally get in 5e.
Kinematics
Hero
Assuming you're only referring to the cantrip side of things (because there's no way that longer casting times can be considered a boost), my thought was that a lot of the problem with cantrips is that they lean towards making the martials redundant. Not entirely — the martials are still stronger in general — but enough that it doesn't feel like the caster needs the martials. The point of the changes I suggested was to make the wizard more "wizardy", while the actual effects need the martials to really take advantage of them.
I don't mind if the wizards get to be more flashy with their effects, as long as it sets up others in the party to play off of those effects, rather than just "wizard solves the problem". That is, it's more of a sideways shift than a definitive nerf, but done so that it's easier for others to take advantage of the situation.
Part of it is that it's an "all together" type of suggestion. Fewer universal spells, focusing on subclass spells, longer casting times, more opportunities for interrupted casting, but improved debuff at-will effects rather than more damage as you level. Small nudges in several directions to get an overall limitation, rather than hard nerfs in any one particular area.
Maybe the Ray of Frost's scaling effect should be "vulnerable to bludgeoning damage from the next melee attack made before the start of your next turn" instead of increased movement reduction, or something like that, if that option seems like a problem. The point is that the cantrips should be "set-ups" for the party rather than damage sources in and of themselves.
And obviously, this is not tested for balance, though it is more focused on in-combat rather than out-of-combat issues (which is also affected by Treantmonk's suggested re-tunings). This is just ideas on the general approach I'd take.
I didn't go for things like reduced hit points, because in my experience wizards either never get hit (in which case their HP doesn't matter), or they get squished really fast (in which case reduced HP only changes "how much overkill").
I didn't go for reduced spells gained because the impact of that depends a ton on GM generosity. Plus the change in universal vs subclass spells should help mitigate that.
Spell re-tuning is a thing, but that's a massive topic in and of itself. I've already delegated that to Treantmonk's videos.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
The gnomish people did not participate in 4E, so I missed this.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
I'm not familiar with this "fuwer eeee" you speak of.
Neonchameleon
Legend
What is my goal? And am I interested in wizard-specific stuff or general caster stuff. I'm trying for a least-changes approach here; I want to keep D&D D&D rather than to change its casting and therefore its character into some other game. I therefore don't want WFRP style casting-with-blowback.
General options
E10 or E8; a level cap at either level 10 or level 8. (If 10 I'd allow someone who went full class to level 10 their level 11 abilities other than sixth level spell slots). Once you've reached the level cap you can spend XP for extra feats but gain no more class levels or spell slots.
Differential Levelling; for every two levels you advance in a non-casting class you get a third one free (and yes this does affect things like your proficiency bonus) and for every four levels you advance in a half-casting class you get a fifth one free. (This can be combined with E8/10)
Heavy Spell Ban List. I'm sure we've all got candidates in mind for the OP spells.
Opening rituals to everyone (but with skill checks).
If I'm feeling draconian go back to actual Vancian casting; you prepare spells into slots. Or cut down the number of spells prepared to or below sorcerer levels.
Wizard specific
To me the wizard subclasses are all hats on hats; the wizard is the great ritualist and the great book learner and do not need to have subclasses. So either we take them away or we bolster them. To bolster them we restrict the wizard to only spells shared with the sorcerer other than in the school of their subclass.
I don't really see that as a predefined role of a Cleric in 5E. Clerics have some pretty awesome offensive spells and can tank really well.
Usually when I play a Cleric I am getting Healing Word, but not much else in the way of healing.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
They did though. PHB2. About eight months after PHB1.
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