D&D 4E How would you re-envision Darksun with 4e?

[Sitara]

The reason gladiator and fighter are different classes is because its fun to have a new class, with cool new abilities. fun should always take priority. I mean, you might as well argue barbarian is justa fighter who cannot read and right, anda ranger is just a fighter who has taken the survivial skill, ora paladin is just a fighter who is lawful good, etc etc. That would make the game boring no, to just have a single fighter class?

 

[Raduin711]

I agree. While someone of any class can be thrown in the gladiatorial pits, gladiators themselves have a different sort of combat style, enough that it merits its own class.

I played around with an idea before where Gladiators can get bonuses whenever they have spectators. Think of it as kind of a reverse-inspire courage. Spectators, in this case, is anyone observing the gladiator fight who is not direclty involved. If you want a crunchier definition, anyone who does not roll initiative who can see the fight. In any event, the more he is able to impress his audience, the better morale bonuses he gets to fight. He could make some sort of perform check as a free action whenever he makes an attack roll. The better the result, the higher the bonus.

 

[outsider]

Outisder,
"Gladiator" is just a profession! It's no different to being an "assassin", both are killers who work in a certain way: one in an arena, the other for pay by stealth.
What "class" they are doesn't matter at all, it's what they do that counts, now how

Well, I still think that "Gladiator" is a far more flavorful Dark Sun class name than "Fighter" is. I'd gladly just re-label the fighter class as gladiator. Dark Sun fighters have always leaned towards what the Warlord is in 4e.

On the other hand, I'm thinking Bards could probably be rolled into the rogue class pretty easily. Give them a bard like talent tree or paragon path or something. Rogues have become alot more varied since second edition, and what the Dark Sun bard does is well within the capabilities of a modern rogue.

I'd probably also remove druids from the original book, and save them for a supplement. Dark Sun druids never made a whole lot of sense as adventurers. They are religiously dedicated to a specific piece of land. The character just doesn't fit in the standard playstyle that includes alot of travelling. I do like the class alot, but it's non-standard enough that I think it should be optional rather than core.

The biggest change I'd make from third edition Dark Sun would be to give everybody a wild talent again. Not sure how I'd do it(as I obviously have no idea how psionics works in 4e), but it'd probably amount to giving everybody a level 1 per encounter ability from one of the psionic classes(note that I'd even give this to the psionic classes, basically giving them an extra power). I suspect that the reason they decided not to give out free wild talents in 3e is because they were a D&D setting and were mandated to follow the D&D character creation rules. This is another of the reasons why I think making it a standalone game rather than a D&D setting is a good idea, as I think wild talents are an important part of the setting. They shouldn't be 2e style(I've got a first level character with disintegrate!), but they should be there.

One happy change in 4th edition is that races seem to be getting +2 to two attributes, which brings it closer to Dark Sun. Half Giants will still be a problem, and Thri Kreen might be a problem as well, but the powering up of the races in 4e will help in recreating Dark Sun.

 

[Klaus]

Well, I still think that "Gladiator" is a far more flavorful Dark Sun class name than "Fighter" is. I'd gladly just re-label the fighter class as gladiator. Dark Sun fighters have always leaned towards what the Warlord is in 4e.

On the other hand, I'm thinking Bards could probably be rolled into the rogue class pretty easily. Give them a bard like talent tree or paragon path or something. Rogues have become alot more varied since second edition, and what the Dark Sun bard does is well within the capabilities of a modern rogue.

I'd probably also remove druids from the original book, and save them for a supplement. Dark Sun druids never made a whole lot of sense as adventurers. They are religiously dedicated to a specific piece of land. The character just doesn't fit in the standard playstyle that includes alot of travelling. I do like the class alot, but it's non-standard enough that I think it should be optional rather than core.

The biggest change I'd make from third edition Dark Sun would be to give everybody a wild talent again. Not sure how I'd do it(as I obviously have no idea how psionics works in 4e), but it'd probably amount to giving everybody a level 1 per encounter ability from one of the psionic classes(note that I'd even give this to the psionic classes, basically giving them an extra power). I suspect that the reason they decided not to give out free wild talents in 3e is because they were a D&D setting and were mandated to follow the D&D character creation rules. This is another of the reasons why I think making it a standalone game rather than a D&D setting is a good idea, as I think wild talents are an important part of the setting. They shouldn't be 2e style(I've got a first level character with disintegrate!), but they should be there.

One happy change in 4th edition is that races seem to be getting +2 to two attributes, which brings it closer to Dark Sun. Half Giants will still be a problem, and Thri Kreen might be a problem as well, but the powering up of the races in 4e will help in recreating Dark Sun.

Ooo, I like that (re-naming the Fighter as Gladiator for Athas).

 

[Sitara]

Its interesting to note that the -1 to -10 hp/dying mechanice in 3E is inspired form a DarkSun optional rule.

 

[Flobby]

I like those ideas too Outsider. Make Gladiator an alt fighter and absorb the bard into the rogue -- maybe add a new talent tree (or whatever it will be called). I was thinking though that it might make sense to just make a new divine class and put the ds cleric and druid together. They dont seem to be different enough to me... I mean in the ds world.

 

[Elphilm]

I was thinking though that it might make sense to just make a new divine class and put the ds cleric and druid together. They dont seem to be different enough to me... I mean in the ds world.

This is the route I would take as well. A Primal Leader with a few Controller abilities, worships the spirit of the land. Might as well call it the Shaman.

 

[Klaus]

I like those ideas too Outsider. Make Gladiator an alt fighter and absorb the bard into the rogue -- maybe add a new talent tree (or whatever it will be called). I was thinking though that it might make sense to just make a new divine class and put the ds cleric and druid together. They dont seem to be different enough to me... I mean in the ds world.

For those Athasian bards who want to be very good at what they are, Assassin abilities would be perfect.

 

[Danzauker]

* It seemed many of the changes were to bring Dark Sun into line with "normal" D&D. By removing the overwhleming evil rulers, adding in a more forests and water, the bio artifacts replaced the low magic and metal and gave it a "edge" (though a stupid one, the way most of the artifacts were), getting rid of the slavery and adding more heroic adventure.[/COLOR]

The end result was that Dark Sun was no longer Dark Sun. Even the look was ruined. Brom's art is perfect for Dark Sun and the revised setting didn't use it. They even changed the cool logo. It was like TSR's goal was to ruin everything good about the Dark Sun setting that made it such an original and intersting setting.

Someone said earlier that Dark Sun was the Mad Max of D&D. They nailed apocolyptic fantasy better than anyone. This is very true. Unfortunately, TSR played it safe instead of pushing Dark Sun further into the areas that made it stand out from the other D&D settings. Dark Sun started off more like Road Warrior / Conan the Barbarian and ended up Beyond Thunderdome/ Conan the Destroyer.

I completely agree.

I'll go even farther: Dark Sun jumped the shark the moment the VERY FIRST adventure was published!!!

The original boxed set had a lot of flavour and potential, but it hasn't EVER been explored by official adventures.

It's like the first adventure of Ravenloft had Stradh killed!! That's the sort of revolution you keep for the moment where you have to make something big to revitalize interest in a setting that's losing momentum (a la Faction War).

But NOT at the start!!!

I'd really wich they bring back Dark Sun but NOT pushing the timeline forward, but instead pulling it before the Prism Pentad, when nobody ever heard of Rikus and the others.

When Dark Sun was still fightening and special. Killing Kalak should be the ending point of an epic campaing, and becoming a new avangion (or a new Dragon, maybe...) the "Epic destiny" as they call it now of a character, not just a backdrop story...

 

[Steely Dan]

I'll go even farther: Dark Sun jumped the shark the moment the VERY FIRST adventure was published!!!

Yep, there was way too much meta-plot/author meddling with campaign settings in 2nd Ed.

Novels and adventures really screwed with Dark Sun, Ravenloft and Planescape.