ruleslawyer
Registered User
Sorry; I thought you were punning. Guess mine was too bad to even be acknowledged...jdrakeh said:
D&D 4E How would you re-envision Ravenloft for 4e.
- Thread starter Najo
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Dimitri Mazieres
Explorer
I don't know if you have read them, but in case you haven't, I'd highly recommend that you take a look at the Gazetteers that were produced for 3e Ravenloft, as most of what you suggest was tried to be implemented in them. As a matter of fact, the whole 3e line was geared towards a native, more coherent campaign, while maintaining the characteristics that made Ravenloft what it is.Remathilis said:
To answer a few of the points you brought up:
- Soth was removed in the final days of TSR, with the events of the novel Spectre of the Black Rose (8 years ago), so he wasn't around anymore in 3e Ravenloft. The same happened with other notable non-natives, like Kaz and Vecna (Gondegal is still there, but I don't think anyone is missing him in Faerûn
).- I don't see as a problem the lack of a "common" tongue in the world. In fact, I see it as something quite realistic, as you don't have a "common" tongue in the real world. You could argue that English is sort of the international language, but it isn't one that is spoken by everyone. The Ravenloft equivalent would be Mordentish, which is the local language in at least four domains, and viewed as the "cultured" language.
- I'm not too sure about this, but I think the issue with the number of moons was finally solved in 3e by stating that there's only one moon in, at least, the Core.
- The technology discrepancies among domains can be rationalized by the relative isolationism of some domains (the less advanced ones). The gazetteers do a great work detailing the commercial relationships among the different domains of the core, and you'll see that there is a certain coherence about which domains have access to firearms, and why.
- The lack of an eastern sea was solved by the appearance of the Nocturnal Sea in Domains of Dread (the last 2e setting book), which also brought a number of islands of terror back into the Core.
- The Shadow Rift... Well, yes, it is a hole in the center of the Core, but I find it as a more than interesting feature of the world (not taking into account what lies inside...). And let's not forget that Ravenloft is a world with fantastic elements. I don't see people complaining about Sigil being a torus-shaped city laying on its side at the top of an infinitely high spire, which in turn is in the middle of everywhere.
I have to say that I agree with Jester, though. The concerns that I've seen brought up in the thread regarding the setting seem to arise from preconceptions, some of which, admittedly, could be founded on the way it was presented during its first incarnations, but which isn't the direction it was tried to be given since 1997. So again, as Jester said, the setting could undergo whatever number of changes could be made to it, but the presence of the Ravenloft logo will bring forth all the same preconceptions regarding "almighty Darklords in a mist-ridden land whose only purpose is the total demise of the party".
Remathilis
Legend
Dimitri Mazieres said:
Sadly, I stopped at Domains of Dread (which contained the Eastern Sea, but introduced Vecna and Kas). And yes, TSR and later Arhaus took MAJOR steps to make the world more unified (and to present it from a native view) but I think a bit more should/could be done.
I only wish to address one of those points for clarity: when I say "common tongue" I don't mean "common" the D&D language. Even in medieval Europe, there were trade languages (Latin, for one) and you usually knew a smattering of the languages of you local neighbors. Ravenloft (prior to 3e?) didn't accommodate this, and to play a native going from one domain to its neighbor required a completely separate language (as varied as Mordenish, Batok and Italian. Yes, real-world Italian). It was hell for anyone (DMs and PCs) who didn't always want to bother with multiple language barriers whenever the scene would shift from one domain to the next. Having the same language spoken in multiple areas (Batok in the southern core, Mordentish in the North for example) would have made life much easier.
(True story, we ended up ruling that Batok was the official trade language/common tongue just so that all our NWPs weren't spent on languages!)
Beyond that, I would be interested in seeing how the Gazetteers fixed many of my complaints, but I still would have liked to see some more cohesion, but perhaps I'll get my wish when that sourcebook comes out eventually...
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Mourn said:
Well, it (Underworld) was original insofar as vampires and werewolves in Hollywood movies were concerned. Ancient wars between werewolves and vampires is by no means a common staple of Gothic horror in Hollywood. I merely meant that is was original in the context of its given medium, which I think is unarguably true.
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jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Mourn said:
Yeah. . . that's BS. There is plenty of opportunity for originality out there if one takes the initiative to realize it. There is a varied collection of gothic horror out there and, remarkbly, very little of it bears the kind of carbon copy rewrite that stains Ravenloft. Shelley and Stoker, for example, didn't feel the need to crib the plots or characters of Matthew Gregory Lewis for their masterworks.
A 'gothic horror' RPG dosen't need to steal characters or plots from established fiction (e.g., Adam, Van Richten, Strahd, etc) in order to remain true to the genre. Genre tropes are individual elements of a genre that can be taken in whole or in part to tell genre tales. Wholesale duplication of pre-existing works or popular character therein is is not required to tell a gothic horror story, nor write a gothic horror RPG.
[Edited to remove a potential paradox that somebody would no doubt use to shift the thread entirely off-topic.]
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Jester David
Hero
Remathilis said:
That's already been done. It's called Masque of the Red Death and is Ravenloft meets the real world.
MidwayHaven
First Post
(reprinted from the Fraternity of Shadows)
Jon Wake has emphasized a few points that would make Ravenloft more introspective as a horror roleplaying game: that in-game-wise there is something inherently wrong with the world, and that it needs fixing.
Ravenloft is often seen as the "world of evil" by many gamers. But if I were to bring Ravenloft to 4e I would remove that notion and instead present Ravenloft as the world of Fear, in its many manifestations. I would present an angle to the Dark Powers, unknowable as they are, as perhaps "collectors" of the multiverse's fears, thus bringing forth Ravenloft. To negotiate a compromise between the hardline Ravenloft fans and the new fans who think Ravenloft is too dark, I would remove the concept of Ravenloft as a "prison plane" but still keep its isolated and unreachable nature in the Shadowfell. I would remove the current restrictions on magic (such as on divination), and instead put in certain dangers and "dramatic failures" if for example a spell doesn't work properly or fizzles.
Jester has made good points about how Ravenloft could be presented in 4e, especially how domain lords could now travel across domain borders with severely diminished powers (maybe an effect of the seeming disappearance of the ethereal plane). Finding Strahd in Egertus, Nova Vaasa doesn't seem like a bad idea, but here for example he needs the earth of Barovia to survive or to only drink the blood of a Barovian even quench his thirst. This would actually spawn interesting interactions between the politics of the domains themselves.
Perhaps the default alignment would be "unaligned" or "no alignment" for ALL player characters (even paladins and yes the domain lords themselves).
One maxim to the success of viable D&D worlds is "If it works in D&D, then it works in _________." This of course is unacceptable to hardcore fundamentalist Ravenloft fans, so I propose an alternative: Ravenloft in 4e could maybe be the mature D&D setting, catering to mature gamers (in the tradition of Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds). Its focus would be on mature themes, giving for example Hazlik the room he needs to feel open about his sexuality. Making Ravenloft a mature setting would of course require a reconfiguration in mood, allowing for example in-game mature language and situations to be played, perhaps even mature art (not adult art, mind you there's a difference) to be created for it.
Jon Wake has emphasized a few points that would make Ravenloft more introspective as a horror roleplaying game: that in-game-wise there is something inherently wrong with the world, and that it needs fixing.
Ravenloft is often seen as the "world of evil" by many gamers. But if I were to bring Ravenloft to 4e I would remove that notion and instead present Ravenloft as the world of Fear, in its many manifestations. I would present an angle to the Dark Powers, unknowable as they are, as perhaps "collectors" of the multiverse's fears, thus bringing forth Ravenloft. To negotiate a compromise between the hardline Ravenloft fans and the new fans who think Ravenloft is too dark, I would remove the concept of Ravenloft as a "prison plane" but still keep its isolated and unreachable nature in the Shadowfell. I would remove the current restrictions on magic (such as on divination), and instead put in certain dangers and "dramatic failures" if for example a spell doesn't work properly or fizzles.
Jester has made good points about how Ravenloft could be presented in 4e, especially how domain lords could now travel across domain borders with severely diminished powers (maybe an effect of the seeming disappearance of the ethereal plane). Finding Strahd in Egertus, Nova Vaasa doesn't seem like a bad idea, but here for example he needs the earth of Barovia to survive or to only drink the blood of a Barovian even quench his thirst. This would actually spawn interesting interactions between the politics of the domains themselves.
Perhaps the default alignment would be "unaligned" or "no alignment" for ALL player characters (even paladins and yes the domain lords themselves).
One maxim to the success of viable D&D worlds is "If it works in D&D, then it works in _________." This of course is unacceptable to hardcore fundamentalist Ravenloft fans, so I propose an alternative: Ravenloft in 4e could maybe be the mature D&D setting, catering to mature gamers (in the tradition of Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds). Its focus would be on mature themes, giving for example Hazlik the room he needs to feel open about his sexuality. Making Ravenloft a mature setting would of course require a reconfiguration in mood, allowing for example in-game mature language and situations to be played, perhaps even mature art (not adult art, mind you there's a difference) to be created for it.
And there we go with the misperception again. Of the three you mentioned, only Adam is close to being stolen, and his case is more of a "What If?" twisting of the story. (i.e., what if Frankenstein's monster WAS evil, not just misunderstood.)jdrakeh said:
Van Richten bears little little resemblance to Van Helsing other than a similar name, a doctorate, and a scholarly approach to vampire slaying. But unlike Dr. VH, Dr. VR branched out into slaying other beasties, and wrote books to help others follow in his footsteps. Dr. VH had a son who died and insane wife. Dr. VR has a son who was sold to a vampire by gypsies, had to slay said son to prevent him from becoming a vampire, had his wife killed in revenge, and slaughtered the gypsies in revenge for that. (Thus gaining a lifelong distrust of gypsies and a lifelong curse to watch his companions die around him.) A much darker and different character.
Strahd is a Count and a vampire and rules a superstitious, Transylvania-esque land. But apart from that, how is he Dracula? Did Dracula constantly chase the reincarnation of his dead "love"? Was he a wizard? Did he kill his brother to steal his wife? Did he have a centuries-long enmity with a lich? Backstabbing vampire niece?
Yes, you can come up with lots of great gothic horror stories that don't even remind anyone of a previous character. (And plenty exist in published Ravenloft. Von Kharkov? Harkon Lukas? Juste? Nightmare Court? Toben the Many? Elena Faithhold?) But sometimes you also want to play up to player's expectations, but with enough twists to keep if fresh.
I like the following ideas:
* Give ravenloft its own collection of countries and realms brought together, but fashion into a working collection of countries. Perhaps domains are small areas that taint the part of the land they are brought into. The darklord is spiritually chained to that domain and brings his pain and darkness with him.
* Something within Ravenloft draws and awakens evil and fear within things. Perhaps it is a planar prison, perhaps it isn't.
* The dark lords can move about, but as suggested above, have to take soil from their domain, or a family heirloom or be in the presence of a particular person, under the effect of a certain charm etc. When darklords leave their domains they are weaker versions of themselves.
* Darklords cannot shut off their borders. They can use magic, sense and see places within their domains, use the animals there as limited familiars. They are like a demi god within his realm, this effect is strongest in the dark lord's lair. Like Strahd stealing action points within castle ravenloft in the most recent adventure WOTC published.
* Keep horror archetypes with twists, just be cleaver about their execution and when they are used.
* Put plenty of other elements for adventure into Ravenloft. Exploring the secrets of the dark lords and the plane itself, ancient histories back before the coming of strahd, lore of the gypises that hint at the secrets of the world.
* Occult and planar powers at work within Ravenloft that are much more subtle and horrorfying. Make the planes more obscure and shadowy. Make demons, dark fey, undead ghosts and wraiths, and the like, things that strike terror into adventurers. Have evil cults, cuthroat gypsies and servants of the darklords that bring intrigue, mystery and cthulthlu like adventuring for the players to explore.
* Keep the fortune telling, astrology, horror/ corruption checks (but streamline them), let magic wards and curses and the like work differently there.
* I also like the idea of it being the mature setting, exploring dark magic, adult relationships, terror and horror, betrayal, corruption and the like. Don't over do it to much, but definantly lose the high adventurer and replace it with drama, suspense, intrigue and being scared.
Ravenloft should be D&D meets the World of Darkness, especially Vampire Dark Ages.
I do think Ravenloft should push into that 16th century european feel. Black powered, carriages, lavish nobles and their courts, extravagant artists and science/ alchemies. You could do this without copying Europe the way they did, look at how Eberron worked most of those things into their setting still had its own original look and feel. Ravenloft could pull a little bit of its look from frazetta, spawn dark ages/ godslayer, warhammer's vampire counts, vampire dark ages, then a little 16th century france and germany meets russia and everything between.
* Give ravenloft its own collection of countries and realms brought together, but fashion into a working collection of countries. Perhaps domains are small areas that taint the part of the land they are brought into. The darklord is spiritually chained to that domain and brings his pain and darkness with him.
* Something within Ravenloft draws and awakens evil and fear within things. Perhaps it is a planar prison, perhaps it isn't.
* The dark lords can move about, but as suggested above, have to take soil from their domain, or a family heirloom or be in the presence of a particular person, under the effect of a certain charm etc. When darklords leave their domains they are weaker versions of themselves.
* Darklords cannot shut off their borders. They can use magic, sense and see places within their domains, use the animals there as limited familiars. They are like a demi god within his realm, this effect is strongest in the dark lord's lair. Like Strahd stealing action points within castle ravenloft in the most recent adventure WOTC published.
* Keep horror archetypes with twists, just be cleaver about their execution and when they are used.
* Put plenty of other elements for adventure into Ravenloft. Exploring the secrets of the dark lords and the plane itself, ancient histories back before the coming of strahd, lore of the gypises that hint at the secrets of the world.
* Occult and planar powers at work within Ravenloft that are much more subtle and horrorfying. Make the planes more obscure and shadowy. Make demons, dark fey, undead ghosts and wraiths, and the like, things that strike terror into adventurers. Have evil cults, cuthroat gypsies and servants of the darklords that bring intrigue, mystery and cthulthlu like adventuring for the players to explore.
* Keep the fortune telling, astrology, horror/ corruption checks (but streamline them), let magic wards and curses and the like work differently there.
* I also like the idea of it being the mature setting, exploring dark magic, adult relationships, terror and horror, betrayal, corruption and the like. Don't over do it to much, but definantly lose the high adventurer and replace it with drama, suspense, intrigue and being scared.
Ravenloft should be D&D meets the World of Darkness, especially Vampire Dark Ages.
I do think Ravenloft should push into that 16th century european feel. Black powered, carriages, lavish nobles and their courts, extravagant artists and science/ alchemies. You could do this without copying Europe the way they did, look at how Eberron worked most of those things into their setting still had its own original look and feel. Ravenloft could pull a little bit of its look from frazetta, spawn dark ages/ godslayer, warhammer's vampire counts, vampire dark ages, then a little 16th century france and germany meets russia and everything between.
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