Jester Canuck said:
What are the problems with Ravenloft?
1) It’s a demiplane in the ethereal sea. The latter doesn’t exist anymore and the former is fantastic and instantly removes some element of normality. However, making it a real world makes it harder to have it ‘steal’ lands and people.
Solution: avoid directly saying what and where Ravenloft is. Simply state what it does and leave its nature mysterious.
Look also to the reasons for which the setting was arranged as it was. As I understand it, in 2e the Ethereal was virtually a prison by itself. There was no access to any outter planes from the ethereal; it was the link between the inner elemental planes (which seem to have been almost as empty as in 3e) and one or more primes. Ravenloft was specifically in the 'Deeper Ethereal' - far from both elemental and Primes, although in theory either might be able to reach it (via the Ethereal).
So why not make it a deeper part of the Shadowfell? It is a transitive plane that borders on one or more primes but otherwise seems apart from other planes (elemental and astral). If deep enough within the Shadowfell, then only through the Shadowfell can it be reached. And via the Shadowfell it might reach into multiple worlds.
So, Ravenloft is something near unheard of - a demiplane deep within the Shadowfell itself, whereas all other demiplanes are within the astral or the elemental chaos. The tie to the Shadowfell may even explain some of Ravenlofts attributes in 4e. And as we do not yet know much about the shadowfell, perhaps it is not a demiplane but instead simply a region deep within the natural landscape of the Shadowfell, surrounded by mists that prevent exit and (without its permission) even entry.
Jester Canuck said:
2) It’s teeny-tiny. However, enlarging it removes all the claustrophobic elements and also requires changing things like population and redoing things like the size of cities on the fly.
Solution: avoid scale. Let individual DMs decide how big it should be. Or offer alternatives.
I've never understood this part. Some domains in Ravenloft are the size of Europe, while others are the size of a single town. Each domain differs markedly in size. It is only 'claustrophobic' in the sense that one cannot enter or leave a domain easily unless its imprisoned dark lord allows ready entrance and exit - or unless one is allowed passage with the enigmatic Vistanti / Gypsies. If it is worked well by the DM, some PCs might travel within a domain for years without realizing that they are potentially trapped within it. Either the domain is so vast they have not yet chanced upon its border, or the adventures within so interesting that they have not thought to move on to new regions. Or a DM might choose to make it more apparent that they are trapped - the better to increase tensions, uncertainties, etc.
Then, of course, there is the mists to consider. A new domains might suddenly appear between two others, either shunting them apart or replacing lands formerly of former domains. A DM can thus 'redraw' the map whenever he wishes. This does not even take into account the idea that the mists can arise at (and even within) the borders of any domain at any time, such that crossing a border is only likely (never certain) to lead into the domain next door. It might lead to a totally new domain, or a distant domain, or even into another part of the domain one wishes to leave.
Maps of Ravenloft are merely suggestions, based upon the beliefs of the more widely traveled NPCs within the setting. There is no reason to rigidly adhere to such should inspiration strike. A few notations in the 4e setting guide stating such should be more than enough on this matter. It might even go so far as to say:
"Leaving [domain A] by the northern road will allow entrance into [domain north of domain A] only 80% of the time (roll of 16 or lower with d20). The remaining 20% should be left to DM discretion. Perhaps they reenter the left domain from another direction, perhaps they enter a domain elsewhere on the map, or perhaps the enter a completely unknown domain created by the DM."
Jester Canuck said:
3) It's static with all the politics and threats of war between lands being paper tigers as the actual borders can’t shift? But removing domains altogether changes how dark lords work and the reflection of the person on the land.
Solution: below
This can be altered without too much work. Just make it so that the dark lords cannot seal their domain borders - only the mists, for whatever alien reason, might do so. Instead, only the Dark Lords cannot leave, but they have some means of spreading their influence, gaining new lands, losing lands to others, and so forth. However, so long as they live, there is a minimum amount of land that cannot be lost - a heartland within the domain, as it were. They are weakened when they leave that heartland, losing some of their powers if they should do so, and any attempt to cross the border of the domain merely sends them into a random part of their domain, further frustrating their efforts to escape.
But they can send armies across the borders, and if the armies successfully take part of their neighbor's lands it becomes part of their domain. However, due to the power a dark lord has within the heartland of his domain, it is virtually impossible to slay him within it. Outside the heartland (but within his domain) a dark lord may be slain, but within it he is so potent as to be virtually unopposable. Some dark lords do not care about dominion, and so they have allowed much of their domains to be captured by others - thus the existence of town sized domains, while others are conquerers that now have vast domains and war amongst each other for ever larger domains.
I can see such working well in Ravenloft - vast domains with small points of strange darkness within them where other, obscure dark lords reside. Having lost so much of their domains, they are prisoners in a truer sense than other dark lords, as their domains are now no larger than the heartland of their former domains - and thus they cannot leave it. And so they are quite potent within the full bounds of their miniature domains, yet are utterly trapped within them.
For the non-dark lords, there is now more reason to fear dark lords of neighboring domains, as one domain may expand to extend its influence over them, such that terrors they have half become accustomed to dealing with are replaced with unknown terrors they have not had the time nor reason to learn to resist or overcome. For example, a land beset by vampires may have built up customs that make it harder for vampires to take them (never granting entrance, using garlic in many foods, never venturing out during the night, etc), but upon being overtaken by a land whose horrors are mostly ghouls or werewolves, suddenly all their customs that make life bearable are nearly worthless. Neither ghouls nor werewolves care much about allowance before entry, for example. And sunlight is not much of a bane against ghouls, so days are no longer as safe as once prior they were.
Jester Canuck said:
4) Players feel it’s a no-win, PC meat grinder setting. No, that’s Call of Cthulu because, as many people pointed out, you can’t frighten a dead PC. And no change to the setting will prevent DMs from using it to insta-kill munchkins.
Solution: none. We can emphasise the point-of-light aspects to the campaign and encourage a mix of the helplessness of the gothic with the necessary heroism as well as encouraging DMs to give out “the win” when necessary.
In many ways Ravenloft already
is a PoL setting. It is just that the lights are weak and wavering candles in the midst of an overcast night. They are sheltered in baskets to keep the winds from putting them out, making them even less apparent and useful to those that have need of them. So, to have Ravenloft stand out, emphasize the weakness of the lights. There are no default 'good' people. All are unaligned initially, and most slide into evil. Being good stands out, gains notice from those very elements that seek to snuff out the little wane lights still existing.
Jester Canuck said:
So, back to the point on the thread, how would I update Ravenloft for 4E?
First, I’d have some event in the past that shook up the planes adding the shadowfell and feywild. I believe some members of the fan community are working on this already, but really all it needs to be is a nebulous even in the past.
The two side planes border the mainland but also overlap in places with the feywild having many points of crossing in Sithicus and the Shadow Rift being a nexus between all three worlds. Sithicans easily take the role of eladrin, as the more magical and wild of fey, while Darkonian elves are just elves.
Tieflings and warlocks fit so effortlessly in the setting it’s hardly even worth commenting on.
Dragonborn? They’re not going to fit…
I’d downplay the darklords as a physical threat. Taking a step back to the 3rd Edition book that didn’t feature stats I’d actually keep that. Leave the darklords statless save as nebulous foes pulling strings, or not. Giving them stats just encourages people to try and fight them. They might work better as figures entirely behind the scenes or simply so powerful (or hidden) that you just can’t confront them.
If they were ever stated out it’d be a good idea to give them multiple statblocks instead of one authoritarian lump. Give them a lvl20 write-up, a lvl30 and then a beefed-up lvl30 so they can be used in multiple campaigns or modified.
This is close to some of my own ideas. Ravenloft is in the Shadowfell, but it has taken pieces from realms in the Prime - including parts that perhaps once were quite close to the Feywild and even the astral or elemenetal. But those connections should no longer exist. The Shadow Rift may represent a section of the Feywild itself or a region of a Prime that was often in close contact with it, but no longer can one cross from that region into the Feywild, for leaving Ravenloft is counter to the nature of the setting.
As for Darklords, I like the idea of multi-leveled stats. So, one set for when they are within their domain but apart from the heart of their domain, another when they are within the heart of their domain, and maybe yet another for when they are especially weak. If - as some have suggested, they can briefly visit other domains, then this last stat block should be for those times, when they are little more powerful than a typical PC and can readily be slain. Personally, I would prefer that this not be possible (leaving their domain), but I can understand why some others would consider it. Just recall that the domains 'nearest' their own is wholly at the whim of the mists. That same domain might an hour later have no connection to their own domain - so suddenly they would be free unless at the disjunction the mists immediately enveloped them and returned them to their domain, regardless of where they were in the other domain.
Jester Canuck said:
Now here’s the big change: I’d differentiate political borders from domain borders. Domain borders would not shift or change but the rulers of lands and political borders would.
[snip]
I'm not sure what to think of this, although if the dark lords were no longer able to seal their borders (and were not the ultimate leader of their domain, politically, which is already true in some domains) I can see this happening without much trouble. The problem is that if we are not re-inventing the realms, the shift in timeline is worthless, for one year, five years, or a hundred years, it matters not if we are recreating the timeline from the very start.
And if we are simply changing the rules but keeping the former timeline unchanged, then even five or six years is barely enough time for the peoples to realize that travel is more certain, more readily accomplished. Recall, they have had scores - perhaps even hundreds - of years of tradition in which it has been quite difficult to cross, let alone expand, their borders. Just changing the rules will not be enough for realms to suddenly be expansionists after a few years. A decade or two, perhaps, but even then I would expect the map to remain quite similar in most respects to its current form.
If we recreate the setting from the beginning, however, the timeline does not matter, as we could even set it years in the past, and it would not matter, as so much had been changed prior to that point in time that the current timeline could not be considered a map of what is to come. As you say, several political countries might exist in one domain, and one or more political countries might cross over several domains, for the domains (excluding their heart lands) would be variable in size, able to overcome other areas of neighboring lands such that the mists treat them as part of the former domain. So, dark lords could fight over lands through the use of their armies, seeking to expand the lands in which they could travel, leaving points of darkness over which they have no control and cannot enter (the remnant heartlands of former domains, where other dark lords are imprisoned with little hope of expanding their influence / domain beyond their heart land borders) scattered about their domain.
Those dark lords that have little interest in conquest might still find themselves with large domains, as the peoples within their domain form armies and conquer neighboring lands, thus shifting the borders of the domain all unknowingly. But even still it would be a case of one domain gaining in size at the expense of another. Thus while a single domain might have multiple political entities within it - city states, kingdoms, etc, there would not be any kingdoms that stretch over multiple domains. At least not in the situation I am envisioning.
