D&D 4E How would you re-envision Ravenloft for 4e.

[Remathilis]

Honestly?

Chuck the Demiplane. There, I said it.

Ravenloft began life as a hodge-podge of every possible horror trope in fantasy. It had no rhyme or reason, no cohesion, no theme except "evil". Darkon (pretty much a D&D world in darkness) sat next to Falkovia (Vlad the Impaler) next to Lamordia (Victorian England + Frankenstein) with no real cohesion. Lamordia is higher tech (firearms) but Falkovia is Iron-Age. Darokin harbors no special fear of demi-humans, Falkovia and Lamordia do. Each domain becomes an isolated pocket with no trade, religion, or even language unifying them and the "pulled from outside" element usually only serves to make PCs WANT to go home the quickest route possible.

To start again, make the world a REAL planet, not a hodge-podge demi-plane. Chuck EVERY reference to a TSR/WotC world that came before (Soth, Haazlin, etc) and assume every dark lord, hero, and monster is native to that world and not drawn in. Dump the domain borders, they are artificial creations designed to railroad PCs. Make the dark lords powerful, but not the linchpin to the setting (or, make them destroyable). Lastly, make the dark powers a true malevolent force to face, not just an enigmatic DM plot-tool.

The final product would be akin to Midnight, and sound a little like this.

The world was peaceful once. It was good and free. But those times are at an end. The time of darkness has come.

They say it began with Strahd, the Ancient one, when he made a pact with Dark Entities beyond our world. He allowed them access, and once here, they took over. These Dark Powers made pacts with many, and to war these Champions of Darkness went. Some went willingly: Drakov marched his armies over several kingdoms. Otherse less so: no one knows why the artificer Mordenheim joined, or even if he knew he was when his perfect creation was born. But now the land is overtaken, and the Champions have carved up the land like a ham on the festival day.

But that doesn't stop their own squabbles, their own desire to be first. The lich-lord Azalin makes no secret his desire for greater power, but still the Original, Strahd, acts as the leader and greatest among the Dark Power's Champions.

Since the coming of Darkness, things are not as they should. The nights are colder, darker. Magic has become fickle, and untrustable. The god's of light grow silent, and only a few still hear their call. The beasts and monsters grew bolder, and under the sway of their evil dark masters, threaten to overtake the last remaining beacons of hope left.

Now is the time for Heroes. Though few still live with the power to challenge the Dark Powers and their minions of evil, new heroes have come to save our dying lands. It is up to them to find the relics of good still untouched by evils stain, rally the people to aid them, and face off against Markov the Changer, Godfrey the Undying, Misori the Necromancer, Anhktepot the Guardian and other servants of darkness.

If they succeed, the long night will be over. If not, we're all doomed, here in Ravenloft

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I'd make the #1 tenet of the Ravenloft world uncertainty. I'd keep all the domains but drop the idea of them being "joined" like a jigsaw puzzle. If you head into the mists, you have no idea where you're going to end up. Maybe you can get a Vistani to guide you but otherwise you have no way of knowing where you will come out. The more you plan out the domains and create a framework for how they relate with each, the greater the certainty and the less apprehension of the unknown. When a merchant goes into the mists every Monday and returns with a cartload of goods on Friday, he doesn't think anything of it. He just went to that town down the road. But when the PCs try it, they end up who knows where and who knows when. And when the PCs try to point the irrationality out to the merchant, he just looks at them like they're crazy and moves hastily away. Make the PCs feel like they may be crazy and you'll keep them off balance. The key is not to explain how it works. It just is what it is and there's no explanation.

The mists would continue to be some kind of pseudo-entity that holds the domains in its tentacles but who/what controls the mists would remain unknown. Whatever entity does control them would constantly be throwing curveballs at the PCs. So you think you've figured out the darklord? Oops, here come the mists and now you're someplace else.

It would be a constant battle against the clock b/c you never know when the mists are going to come for you. And if you peeve off the mists (i.e., by trying to point out to the locals the illogical nature of their world), they come for you that much faster.

I'd also make the mists crazy-dangerous, like in that recent movie, The Mist. If it's not, the PCs will just be jumping into the mists on a whim. When the PCs go into the mists, they should be hoping/praying that they can get out again ASAP! Because if they can't, something in those mists will get them.

For me, Ravenloft evolved into something that was too stable and predictable. Make everything unpredictable and you'll keep the PCs on their toes.

I also don't like the more recent changes to emphasize the PCs being natives of Ravenloft rather than being foreigners. I think that's a big mistake b/c it removes some of the mystery and makes it just another campaign setting. If you really wanted to go this route, I'd suggest something akin to the Matrix movies and have the PCs "awake" from the routine drudgery that is their lives and realize there's something not quite right about the world. That revelation draws the attention of the mists and the adventure begins!

p.s., regarding war between the domains, that was always present. Falkovnia and Darkon were routinely "at war." But it was M.A.D. since a darklord could always ultimately defeat any invasion (as it should be, IMO).

 

[jdrakeh]

I'd make the #1 tenet of the Ravenloft world uncertainty. I'd keep all the domains but drop the idea of them being "joined" like a jigsaw puzzle. If you head into the mists, you have no idea where you're going to end up. Maybe you can get a Vistani to guide you but otherwise you have no way of knowing where you will come out. The more you plan out the domains and create a framework for how they relate with each, the greater the certainty and the less apprehension of the unknown. When a merchant goes into the mists every Monday and returns with a cartload of goods on Friday, he doesn't think anything of it. He just went to that town down the road. But when the PCs try it, they end up who knows where and who knows when. And when the PCs try to point the irrationality out to the merchant, he just looks at them like they're crazy and moves hastily away. Make the PCs feel like they may be crazy and you'll keep them off balance. The key is not to explain how it works. It just is what it is and there's no explanation.

The mists would continue to be some kind of pseudo-entity that holds the domains in its tentacles but who/what controls the mists would remain unknown. Whatever entity does control them would constantly be throwing curveballs at the PCs. So you think you've figured out the darklord? Oops, here come the mists and now you're someplace else.

It would be a constant battle against the clock b/c you never know when the mists are going to come for you. And if you peeve off the mists (i.e., by trying to point out to the locals the illogical nature of their world), they come for you that much faster.

I'd also make the mists crazy-dangerous, like in that recent movie, The Mist. If it's not, the PCs will just be jumping into the mists on a whim. When the PCs go into the mists, they should be hoping/praying that they can get out again ASAP! Because if they can't, something in those mists will get them.

For me, Ravenloft evolved into something that was too stable and predictable. Make everything unpredictable and you'll keep the PCs on their toes.

I also don't like the more recent changes to emphasize the PCs being natives of Ravenloft rather than being foreigners. I think that's a big mistake b/c it removes some of the mystery and makes it just another campaign setting. If you really wanted to go this route, I'd suggest something akin to the Matrix movies and have the PCs "awake" from the routine drudgery that is their lives and realize there's something not quite right about the world. That revelation draws the attention of the mists and the adventure begins!

p.s., regarding war between the domains, that was always present. Falkovnia and Darkon were routinely "at war." But it was M.A.D. since a darklord could always ultimately defeat any invasion (as it should be, IMO).

See, I'd play the heck out of your Ravenloft. The near total lack of mystery/unknown in the setting as it currently stands is a real deal killer for me. I mean, the unknown is what men fear most. If every horror in the setting is a completely open book, dripping with the expected, Ravenloft isn't very horrific for me (though it often rises to the level of god awful bad).

 

[ruleslawyer]

Actually, I'd say that Ogrork's, and to a lesser extent John Wake's, depictions of Ravenloft are exactly as the setting was meant to be visualized from the get-go. Uncertainty is certainly a biggie in the Domains of Dread: Divinations don't work, the borders between the Lands are quite likely to kill you, drive you mad, turn you back, or worse still permit you entry into a *new* nightmare, and so on, the Mists can simply rise and grab you off one domain into another (or even reach into worlds beyond to pull in unsuspecting travelers), etc.

IMO, the only "new" element being introduced is the sense of cohesion communicated in John Wake's post; the notion that the Lands of Mist overall reek of a particular curse, a particular set of threads of danger and woe, and a particular pathology that must be delved into and and hopefully remedied. (In that sense, John Wake's post is positing an "anti-mythology" like the Cthulhu Mythos, with equally disastrous possibilities facing those who plumb its secrets and attempt to protect good souls from its dangers.)

I think, though, that Ravenloft is nonetheless best presented as a set of standalone settings for module-length adventures. The conceit that the world you're in is "just like the 1933 Bela Lugosi Mummy movie, but for D&D!" is fine for a one-shot, but pretty weak when you play a number of adventures in that world, *plus* it's right next to 19th-century Romania, which is right next to 19th-century England, which is right next to Stone Age Athas, etc etc. It gets a bit hard to maintain "campaign"-length consistency.

 

[The Little Raven]

See, I'd play the heck out of your Ravenloft. The near total lack of mystery/unknown in the setting as it currently stands is a real deal killer for me. I mean, the unknown is what men fear most. If every horror in the setting is a completely open book, dripping with the expected, Ravenloft isn't very horrific for me (though it often rises to the level of god awful bad).

This problem stems from players reading DM books (since the vast majority of Ravenloft books are DM books), where the secrets that DMs are supposed to incorporate into their games are laid out for you to learn. So, when a player already knows the secrets of Barovia from reading Gazetteer I, it's not the setting's fault for being less mysterious, it's the player's fault for reading DM source material.

It also stems from metaplot, which is primarily driven by both the need to add new stuff and to explain the old stuff. Metaplot needs to be handled very carefully (usually as an optional thing... like an optional set of adventure hooks).

 

[Irda Ranger]

Honestly?

Chuck the Demiplane. There, I said it.

I find this argument compelling. I'm not sure I'd go that extreme, but I see where it's coming from.

I think, though, that Ravenloft is nonetheless best presented as a set of standalone settings for module-length adventures. The conceit that the world you're in is "just like the 1933 Bela Lugosi Mummy movie, but for D&D!" is fine for a one-shot, but pretty weak when you play a number of adventures

And this is why. I want a good gothic-horror campaign setting, not a series of one-shot adventures.

 

[TeutonicBerserker]

I agree with John Wake's & Remathilis' posts.

No demiplane nonsense. It should be a "regular" campaign setting on an earth-like planet.

Domains & Darklords. Much like a lord is all but powerless when outside his feifdom IRL (sans invading army of course), a Darklord would be at the mercy of his hosts (for practical reasons) when exiting his Domain. Add a Birthrightesque ability of some Darklords to draw upon the powers of the land, and you have a more dynamic setting where Darklords have a real reason to be parionoid of possible usurpers. Darklords would be a focus, but they would not be above challenge, and they would not personally define the domain, allowing for other villans in the same area.

I'd keep the mists as a semi-malicious quasi-natural phenomena with an uncanny knack for leading travellers astray (and into danger), and not a random teleportation plot device.

The dark powers work as they are as the mysterious forces that tilt the balance of fate towards darkness.

 

[Sonny]

Why not completely reinvision the setting? It worked for Battlestar Galactica.

C'mon, forget about the convoluted backstory, the really forced cosmology.

You have a clean slate. What makes Ravenloft a favorite setting? Think of it as Ultimate Ravenloft.

It's a world born in evil and blood. There's something outside of space and time, handing out favors to those that embrace cruelty and maliciousness. Thick fog clings to everything, and sometimes it seems like it has a mind of its own.

The history of the realm is a history of conquest and bloodshed, of deposed tyrants and slaughtered uprisings. Everywhere you go you see evidence that something has gone terribly wrong. Gibbets hang from the crossroads packed with misshapen skeletons. The old men say that if you taste their flesh you'll learn the secrets of the grave. Children dare each other to do it and every season a few children come down with night terrors that take their lives.

There's a manor deep in the woods where only a black coach goes, pulled by horses that reek of grave earth. People know better than to look the driver in the face. A faerie circle in the deepining woods is avoided even by the elegant eldarin, who refuse to speak of that place and the screams that sound from it on winter nights.

There are some who do not hide from these things. All have been touched by that vile intelligence in some way. Some touched the dead hand of their loved one and knew that behind it was more than just a random murder. Others delved into the oldest secrets and learned the corrupting names of the still-born. Some simply asked too many questions. But all learned the same thing.

The world is wrong.

Someone has to fix it.

That was some truly great stuff.




Oh, by the way...*YOINK*

 

[gonzoron]

Ain't broke, don't fix it. Have your cake, eat it too.

What is Ravenloft at it's core? (forgive the pun) Gothic Horror D&D. With that in mind, all the funky stuff some people seem to want to chuck out (the demiplane, domains, darklords, the patchwork world) are vital DM tools to allow the premise to work. Horror is such a varied hodge-podge of ideas, it needs to be able to draw from anywhere, and make sense when it does. The genre needs (apparently) unstoppable bad guys that the protagonists can only hope to foil time and again. It needs the mystery and unpredictability of the Mists. It needs the Deus ex machina of the vistani.

No matter how mapped out and filled in Ravenloft got due to the Gazetteers, no matter how much gets added in the future, there's still room to stick in whatever you want. And you can always blame it on the Mists. The world can look as real or as forced as you want it to and still the Mists are out there. The Gazetteers and other 3e books (along with 2e's Domains of Dread) went out of their way to make a lot of the patchwork stuff make sense, at least from a native's point of view. Why mess that up to attract new players while alienating the old?

A 4e RL player who's never played before doesn't need to know who Azenwrath is, or what happened to Eva Mordenheim, but why should they be bothered if old school players have that info? An ideal 4e book would summarize and build on what's come before, not destroy or reinvent it. The emphasis should be: here are the basic facts, here's the mood of the setting, and here is how you can ignore or change anything you want to because of the handy Mysterious Mists.

Sure, you might want to shake up a few things, so it's not just the same old fluff with new crunch. (I've got 5 editions of the RL Campaign setting. I don't really need another just to convert the rules.) Advance a few latent plots here and there. Maybe change out a darklord or two. But leave the TouD to the DMs.


ETA: I might add, I agree both Jon Wake's & Remathilis write some great evocative imagery above. But none of it is incompatible with Ravenloft as it stands. (OK, the talk of the darklords making direct pacts with the Dark Powers is a stretch, but otherwise, how exactly does those moods not work with the existing demiplane?)

 

[Jon Wake]

More extrapolation, in the form of fiction.

Giguld looks up from his work desk, points to a dark cluster of text in his massive book.

"This passage here. This is what confused me."

I noted the woodcut that accompanied the text: a small band of cruelly smiling warriors smiting arms and legs off cowering townsfolk.

"The Battle of Olond Fields. A dozen mercenary soldiers hold the Karaos Line back for over three days. They slaughtered the town they were supposed to protect."

"So?" I'd fought in three campaigns, and seen similar things. "It's no great task to fight starving peasants. They half fall before your stroke ever lands."

"And that's the story we're all told. But this, this here, is the oldest surviving record of that battle. And they weren't fighting peasant levies. Not in the slightest. Read here: 'and they hewed the eldarin knights and lordly defenders of the small.'"

Something tickled the back of my mind. "Doesn't make sense. There's no way a handful of mercenaries can stand before trained knights, bleedin' skrag knights no less. You sure it was a dozen?"

"The sources all agree." The old man steepled his fingers, grinning like a cat. "There is simply no way for that battle to have gone that way. No rituals were reported, just blood and screaming."

"I'm getting bored, old man."

"I'm saying, I believe the mercenaries couldn't have won. They shouldn't have won. Something made their swords endlessly sharp, their arms endlessly strong. Something that rewarded their evil! And its not just that battle! Anytime, anywhere in our history two forces met, the viler, more brutal of the two always emerges as the victor, no matter the odds against them."

I took it in. It made sense. 'Nobility is the surest way to a nice funeral', as the saying goes. Still, a life as a soldier has taught me never to take a story for granted.

After I wiped his blood from my sword, I have to admit, I felt a little better. But it'll take a lot more than the murder of one man to test this theory.