D&D General How would you redo 4e?

If two classes in the same power source require the same 'tool', then I would prefer they just copy and paste the same power on a different page than consolidate EVERYTHING by power source. It's not efficient use of book space but it's more efficient at the table.
Well, if you simply publish online, then things do get a bit more interesting... Like, if you follow my link you get to the basic 'huge document' version of things, which can get unwieldy if its too large. OTOH I have constructed my content pipeline so the same content that makes the big document can also make a compendium-like database for each kind of thing (power, class, creature, item, etc.). So, If I continue that to produce a more flexible online reference, then it shouldn't actually make sense to call things duplicated or not duplicated, each thing is referenced where needed.
 

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How do you handle the "build"/"subclass" hooks, then? Because I consider those relatively important to the spirit of 4e--that your build choices shape later choices, without determining later choices.
Well, currently its like you have one or two features that are present in all members of the class, and then a list of "and pick one from this list", which is going to give you your different 'builds'. Honestly though, I almost find that, because you can technically apply ANY boon to ANY character there's less of a need for a whole bunch of builds. In a sense, the different between a 'build' and a 'class' is really small. You could pretty much present several 'classes' that were just reskins of the same features, with maybe a minor variation and just different color. Class just seems a lot 'lighter', even though it effectively does close to the same work as in 4e.

I mean, honestly, its hard to compare the two systems because I only create what I need in terms of powers and classes for HoML, so it doesn't have a complete array (it probably has ENOUGH classes, but some have never been tested). You could thus argue about exactly how much it will produce the same results as 4e. Heck, worst case you invent 9000 boons and you are basically carting around as much stuff as 4e does, so I think its not like it won't work, but I totally would agree with the proposition that it is unproven that it actually will cut down on powers.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Honestly though, I almost find that, because you can technically apply ANY boon to ANY character there's less of a need for a whole bunch of builds. In a sense, the different between a 'build' and a 'class' is really small.
That...sounds like pretty much what I described. You've lost something I consider pretty key to the 4e spirit in doing so. Dragon Sorcerer and Chaos Sorcerer are both Sorcerers, but do it differently--there's a pervasive commonality, but spikes of difference.
 

That...sounds like pretty much what I described. You've lost something I consider pretty key to the 4e spirit in doing so. Dragon Sorcerer and Chaos Sorcerer are both Sorcerers, but do it differently--there's a pervasive commonality, but spikes of difference.
Well, there actually ARE those two builds in HoML (you choose one of those class features at chargen). I'm not sure why mine are NECESSARILY samey, they have differing class mechanics and depending on what choices you make the likely boon/power choices you would want will be different. I mean, its not like 4e sorcs don't all share the same power list, they do! So, in terms of the diversity of one build vs another build of the same class, HoML has lost nothing.

Now, it is more of an open question when you discuss diversity between classes, since Wizards and Sorcerers can technically take all the same powers, if they want. Wizards have controller build options, sorcerers are strikers, and they start with different implement proficiencies, thus probably favor different stats, and that will likely feed into which secondaries are optimal for each one, and thus overall you will likely find CHARACTERS won't overlap a ton in powers. Honestly I care less about the diversity of hypotheticals like classes, as you play a character, not a whole class.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Well, there actually ARE those two builds in HoML (you choose one of those class features at chargen). I'm not sure why mine are NECESSARILY samey, they have differing class mechanics and depending on what choices you make the likely boon/power choices you would want will be different. I mean, its not like 4e sorcs don't all share the same power list, they do! So, in terms of the diversity of one build vs another build of the same class, HoML has lost nothing.

Now, it is more of an open question when you discuss diversity between classes, since Wizards and Sorcerers can technically take all the same powers, if they want. Wizards have controller build options, sorcerers are strikers, and they start with different implement proficiencies, thus probably favor different stats, and that will likely feed into which secondaries are optimal for each one, and thus overall you will likely find CHARACTERS won't overlap a ton in powers. Honestly I care less about the diversity of hypotheticals like classes, as you play a character, not a whole class.
Let me rephrase.

Burning Spray is a Sorcerer At-Will. It is a solid choice for anyone wanting a decent multi-target at-will option, especially if they intend to focus on dealing fire damage, or want a way to set things on fire from a distance. It is especially useful for Dragon Sorcerers, however, because it has a subclass-specific rider that causes the next person to attack you in melee to take Fire damage equal to your Str mod. This doesn't just play into the (sub)class fantasy of breathe fire on your enemies, it also enhances the (sub)class fantasy of being able to go toe to toe with your opponents: the rider provides you protection against enemies who try to harm you in melee, feeding into the "beefy caster" concept that the Dragon Sorcerer represents (and has represented since at least the Dragon Disciple PrC; something even 5e recognizes.)

Conversely, Chaos Bolt is a Sorcerer At-Will that deals solid damage at range, has a good damage type in Psychic, and targets Will making it fairly reliable. However, in the hands of a Chaos Sorcerer, it becomes an engine of massive multi-target damage...IF they roll lucky. Because every time the attack roll is even, they can effectively make a lesser version of the same attack against a new creature (but never against one already hit this round.) That's very useful, and it plays into the subclass fantasy of toying with unstable, unreliable powers that might do fabulously awesome things...or might be kind of a dud.

I consider these interactions to be extremely important to the structure of 4e. Without them, and especially if they're gone AND all powers are available to all classes always, you have removed much of what makes it interesting to construct a character and a good portion of the tactical value in making choices. Just pick whatever power is strongest from all classes. It's the augment problem writ large; spam your best augmentable power until you run out of PP.

In removing subclass-specific riders and making all powers universal, you have removed a core pillar of support for fulfilling those (sub)class fantasies. Unless your baseline features are up to the task of carrying that weight all by themselves, and I am more than a little skeptical about that, you seem to have done what I said: impoverished an important part of 4e by over-genericizing its components.
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
There's a lot of small things I would fix.
  • Balancing fell off a bit at higher levels, the maths were off.
  • Many Daily Powers were very powerful and were either you do something awesome or you miss completely, I would add degrees of success (which many other powers had).
  • I would incorporate some type of escalation die to accelerate combat.
  • I would tweak the maths slightly (notably HPs and hit chance) to accelerate combat.
  • I would bring 5E advantage system in some way to simplify some of the math.
  • Many more.
And there's one big glaring issue which, in my opinion, is what tanked the edition:
  • 4E powers are almost exclusively combat-oriented. The game does not stop you from doing exploration, social and roleplay. But it doesn't support it a ton via your character progression. There were utility powers, but they were few and often still combat oriented. I'd had a plethora of utility powers (some classics and some less-known) to give more opportunities for players to solve non-combat encounters.
I actually have a lengthy document that has a ton of notes, drafts and ideas for a 4E inspired game. It's probably gathering dust somewhere.
Your bottom bullet point is my overall thought about 4e.

It's an amazing tactical skirmish ruleset...but not so much an amazing roleplaying game. Id be surprised if more than 10% of the crunch in 4e was non-combat related.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Your bottom bullet point is my overall thought about 4e.

It's an amazing tactical skirmish ruleset...but not so much an amazing roleplaying game. Id be surprised if more than 10% of the crunch in 4e was non-combat related.
What about skill challenges? And rituals?

The vast majority of spells are for combat, not for non-combat, in every other edition of D&D. Skills are a couple of pages. It's always been the case that the bulk of D&D's rules refer to combat stuff. 4e was no different in this regard.
 


Undrave

Legend
What about skill challenges? And rituals?

The vast majority of spells are for combat, not for non-combat, in every other edition of D&D. Skills are a couple of pages. It's always been the case that the bulk of D&D's rules refer to combat stuff. 4e was no different in this regard.

As if they wouldn't have been absolutely bodied with 'lol roll-play' if they had a ton of direct social mechanics above and beyond having the actual most non-'the wizard wins', non-combat mechanics to date.
What did 3.X even had outside combat aside from free wins for Casters? What does 5e even have that 4e doesn't when it comes to out of combat stuff?
 

Voadam

Legend
Your bottom bullet point is my overall thought about 4e.

It's an amazing tactical skirmish ruleset...but not so much an amazing roleplaying game. Id be surprised if more than 10% of the crunch in 4e was non-combat related.
How do you feel the percentage compares to other editions?

4e PH has 15 pages of skills (176-190), 20 pages of rituals (296-315). Utility powers are always non-attack things but are often at least somewhat combat useful like levitate. I am not sure offhand how much to peg utility powers as a percentage of class powers (at will are not going to be 25% of AEDU) and on where to peg them as combat or noncombat. Blur is pretty much only combat, but disguise self is pretty hard to classify as a combat spell. I am not going to try and guess on breaking down feats.

Most non-combat spells from prior editions seem to be in 4e as utility powers or rituals. Which seems the biggie on prior edition non-combat mechanics.
 
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