D&D General How would you redo 4e?

[Mistwell]

I really liked the direction Essentials was going (though that was not necessarily a popular opinion at the time). Less uniformity, more class exceptions. More flavor and ribbon abilities.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I thought 4e invented advantage with the Avenger?

me too

 

[Undrave]

As is happens, that’s exactly what I do in The Fantasy Engine, my 4e-inspired game. All situational modifiers are either Boons (+2 to skill ranks) or Banes (+2 to difficulty). They cancel each other or before being applied. Boon 3 + Bane 2 is Boon 1, for example.

Things that impact rolls continuously, such as proficiency and equipment bonuses work normally, since you just note them down once for most rolls.

I actually use some Fantasy Flight generic game tokens to track stuff in RPGs, even when I’m playing over Roll20, and so using them for this would be easy, especially due to their different colors.

Yeah the permanent stuff would just be on your sheet. Personally I'd have two kinds: 'until the end of your next turn' types, and 'duration' types, and I'd just put reminder boxes on the character sheet so you can just stack your tokens, and as you say, they would just cancel each other out automatically. I'd probably have reminder tokens for the various conditions and put them in those boxes too. I would use the 4e Saving Throw mechanic and rename it 'duration dice' to tell when to remove stuff from the duration boxes.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

A variation of 4e that used advantage and disadvantage in the same manner as 5e is not a game I would purchase or run.

4e already has a lot of "add X or Y" where X or Y may be +1 +2 or a stat...
useing advantage would let them stream line some of them...

Take teh warlord (my favorite class) if you had at wills and 1st and 3rd level encounter powers that gave advantage on things(the at wills scale to add a static +1/+2/+3 at 5/11/17), and 1st level daily's that add 1d4 to the rolls and 5th level dailys that add 1d6... witha rule that you can only add 1 die (so no stacking a +1d4 and +1d6 or even 2 +1d4s) and can't stack advantage... BUT you can have advantage +1 +1d6

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah the permanent stuff would just be on your sheet. Personally I'd have two kinds: 'until the end of your next turn' types, and 'duration' types, and I'd just put reminder boxes on the character sheet so you can just stack your tokens, and as you say, they would just cancel each other out automatically. I'd probably have reminder tokens for the various conditions and put them in those boxes too. I would use the 4e Saving Throw mechanic and rename it 'duration dice' to tell when to remove stuff from the duration boxes.

And Heroes of Myth and Legend just replaces all these with advantage/disadvantage, its just vastly faster at the table and in practice we found you lose basically nothing. All bonuses that are granted by constant things fall into 4 non-stacking types, level, ability, proficiency, and permanent (which is mostly items, but could include a wide variety of bonuses). These fixed bonuses CAN be situational, but they don't have durations. There are only 2 durations, UEOYNT and encounter.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And Heroes of Myth and Legend just replaces all these with advantage/disadvantage, its just vastly faster at the table and in practice we found you lose basically nothing.

Except the possibility of succeeding with the bonus where there previously was no possibility before.

Advantage is an effective +5 that's not actually a +5.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Except the possibility of succeeding with the bonus where there previously was no possibility before.

Advantage is an effective +5 that's not actually a +5.

correct, if I have a +7 to hit and someone has an AC 30 advantage is not as much help as +5
(this goes for skills and DC too but I want to use combat for nat 20)

if you roll twicce you do have double the chance of a nat 20 hitting no matter what... but that +5 means you are now at +12 so you make it on a 20, 19, and 18

 

[Undrave]

4e already has a lot of "add X or Y" where X or Y may be +1 +2 or a stat...
useing advantage would let them stream line some of them...

Take teh warlord (my favorite class) if you had at wills and 1st and 3rd level encounter powers that gave advantage on things(the at wills scale to add a static +1/+2/+3 at 5/11/17), and 1st level daily's that add 1d4 to the rolls and 5th level dailys that add 1d6... witha rule that you can only add 1 die (so no stacking a +1d4 and +1d6 or even 2 +1d4s) and can't stack advantage... BUT you can have advantage +1 +1d6

And Heroes of Myth and Legend just replaces all these with advantage/disadvantage, its just vastly faster at the table and in practice we found you lose basically nothing. All bonuses that are granted by constant things fall into 4 non-stacking types, level, ability, proficiency, and permanent (which is mostly items, but could include a wide variety of bonuses). These fixed bonuses CAN be situational, but they don't have durations. There are only 2 durations, UEOYNT and encounter.

The thing with using a 5e type advantage system is that it doesn't stack, so you never have to look for more ways to gain the upper hand.

In 4e, making use of the environment, figuring out how to flank AND having multiple allies give you a bonus were all possible tools in your arsenal to overcome a tough foe. It made you engage with the environment more, made mobility more important and promoted more teamwork. If you only need 1 of those to get the maximum bonus you can get, you'll forget the others, ya know?

"Roll 2 dice take the higher/lower result" still has room in the game as a mechanic for sure, though.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The thing with using a 5e type advantage system is that it doesn't stack, so you never have to look for more ways to gain the upper hand.

fair enough...

In 4e, making use of the environment, figuring out how to flank AND having multiple allies give you a bonus were all possible tools in your arsenal to overcome a tough foe.

and where I would want a future edition to have more of that then 5e does (and I don't allow flank to give any bonus to make other advantages more useful in my own games) I do see a value on a cap... not everything stacking... now 3e and 4e had things like named bonuses... but I like to bring diffrent fluff to the same mechanic and not have it stack... so like my example 3 options for advantage wont stack 3 options for adding a flat bonus wont stack and 3 things that add a die wont stack, but getting advantage form one a static bonus form another and a die from a 3rd will all stack...

and take it father, if I have a encounter long "add 1d4 to attack rolls" but then you use something that lets someone for 1 attack (say the next attack against this target) to add a d8 then taking the d8 is better then the d4 for this one while the rest of the fight you keep the d4... or the cleric uses a cool power that adds +1 to all attacks, and my warlord has the aura that when you spend an action point you add my int mod (+4) to attack even though they don't stack everyone keeps that +1 and next round when you don't have the action pt you have that +1 but right now tehy over lapt obe a total +4 (so +3 better) for this. however two easy (say at will, or flanking, or high ground) things only give advantage so you don't stack a bunch of small stuff

It made you engage with the environment more, made mobility more important and promoted more teamwork. If you only need 1 of those to get the maximum bonus you can get, you'll forget the others, ya know?

that is the needle to thread, make the sets work togather with out stacking with themselves... I think static number die and advantage works well but maybe a third or fourth would be needed... or maybe the dice should stack, or maybe not... it would take some testing to be sure.

"Roll 2 dice take the higher/lower result" still has room in the game as a mechanic for sure, though.

yeah, again I think it is brilliant, even if it is overused... but the fact that bless doesn't give advantage is a sign that you can make it work

 

[Undrave]

that is the needle to thread, make the sets work togather with out stacking with themselves... I think static number die and advantage works well but maybe a third or fourth would be needed... or maybe the dice should stack, or maybe not... it would take some testing to be sure.

Hmm... maybe if Advantage was a bonus dice instead, you could have it stack resulting in the advantage dice getting bigger? You flank (remember that 4e didn't let you move around enemies freely) you +d4, someone uses a power to help you to +d6, the target can't see in the dark but you can so you get up to +d8? This system would only really work for short term bonuses, anything longer and I prefer my token system.

 

[Voidmoji]

4e already has a lot of "add X or Y" where X or Y may be +1 +2 or a stat...
useing advantage would let them stream line some of them...

Take teh warlord (my favorite class) if you had at wills and 1st and 3rd level encounter powers that gave advantage on things(the at wills scale to add a static +1/+2/+3 at 5/11/17), and 1st level daily's that add 1d4 to the rolls and 5th level dailys that add 1d6... witha rule that you can only add 1 die (so no stacking a +1d4 and +1d6 or even 2 +1d4s) and can't stack advantage... BUT you can have advantage +1 +1d6

I don’t like the advantage/disadvantage system of 5e. It’s as simple as that. I’m not hear to crap on anyone’s preferences or fun! But for myself, I wouldn’t buy or run a game where it existed as a replacement for modifiers in general.

My dislike is for much the reason @Undrave pointed out. I like situational modifiers. I feel like they fit with the crunchy nature of 4e tactical combat. I just think they need cleaned up. And I have solutions for that that don’t involve reducing them to a binary state.

I’ve considered using the mechanics of rolling extra d20 for some specific things in my own game, but if that happens it will be rare.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The thing with using a 5e type advantage system is that it doesn't stack, so you never have to look for more ways to gain the upper hand.

In 4e, making use of the environment, figuring out how to flank AND having multiple allies give you a bonus were all possible tools in your arsenal to overcome a tough foe. It made you engage with the environment more, made mobility more important and promoted more teamwork. If you only need 1 of those to get the maximum bonus you can get, you'll forget the others, ya know?

"Roll 2 dice take the higher/lower result" still has room in the game as a mechanic for sure, though.

Simply piling on bonuses to attack rolls for these things however is pretty lazy design. 4e itself doesn't even do much of that. Invisible, flanking, surprise, etc. are all CA, and don't stack! 4e monster design also moved away from the idea of simple bonuses and similar techniques.

Now, I don't disagree that advantage should be applied on a very limited basis, so I think the actual difference here is simply that I would avoid using bonuses much at all. They're fine as a way to generate baseline hit probability, but a poor way to express limited tactical advantage.

 

[Voidmoji]

Simply piling on bonuses to attack rolls for these things however is pretty lazy design. 4e itself doesn't even do much of that. Invisible, flanking, surprise, etc. are all CA, and don't stack! 4e monster design also moved away from the idea of simple bonuses and similar techniques.

Now, I don't disagree that advantage should be applied on a very limited basis, so I think the actual difference here is simply that I would avoid using bonuses much at all. They're fine as a way to generate baseline hit probability, but a poor way to express limited tactical advantage.

I’m not here to argue tastes, but claiming that a system with linear modifiers is lazy, but removing all that variability and going with an extra die on the roll to cover it all somehow isn’t, seems like an odd tack.

I encourage people to play games they want, with rules they enjoy, and that includes 5e style advantage and disadvantage. For some people it is the perfect solution! But it is certainly not inherently better, and 4e strikes me as one of the less lazily-created games out there.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I’m not here to argue tastes, but claiming that a system with linear modifiers is lazy, but removing all that variability and going with an extra die on the roll to cover it all somehow isn’t, seems like an odd tack.

I encourage people to play games they want, with rules they enjoy, and that includes 5e style advantage and disadvantage. For some people it is the perfect solution! But it is certainly not inherently better, and 4e strikes me as one of the less lazily-created games out there.

4e generally did OK. I'm mostly pushing back against the notion that it even heavily uses situational bonuses as it's primary mechanism. You can definitely stack up a bunch of stuff, and I don't endorse that sort of design much, but 4e definitely moved away from that over time.

So, again, I tend to use other things instead, but where a fairly decisive advantage is warranted, like surprise, then advantage is fine. It's simple and clear.

 

[pemerton]

@AbdulAlhazred

What sorts of alternatives to numerical bonuses are you thinking of, to express limited tactical advantage? Free movement, and friendly forced movement, are one sort that 4e uses a bit. Condition infliction is another, though it's typically downstream of an attack rather than upstream.

 

[Voidmoji]

4e generally did OK. I'm mostly pushing back against the notion that it even heavily uses situational bonuses as it's primary mechanism.

That's all fine. I just object to the idea that modifiers instead of the A/D system is somehow lazy game design.

 

[pemerton]

That's all fine. I just object to the idea that modifiers instead of the A/D system is somehow lazy game design.

I don't think anyone advanced that idea. Here's what AbdulAlhazred posted:

Simply piling on bonuses to attack rolls for these things however is pretty lazy design. 4e itself doesn't even do much of that. Invisible, flanking, surprise, etc. are all CA, and don't stack! 4e monster design also moved away from the idea of simple bonuses and similar techniques.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@AbdulAlhazred

What sorts of alternatives to numerical bonuses are you thinking of, to express limited tactical advantage? Free movement, and friendly forced movement, are one sort that 4e uses a bit. Condition infliction is another, though it's typically downstream of an attack rather than upstream.

Well, increased effect is certainly one option, which could include a damage bonus (though again this can be a bit vanilla). But you have also hit on a number of the possibilities. Granted they are 'downstream', but I don't see that as a big issue in a general sense. You could also deny the opponent use of some resource of their own. So, for instance, negating your opponent's ability to respond with an interrupt, marking the opponent, etc. The benefits could also have to do with other characters. So, if I flank a monster, I grant my ally an MBA if I hit, etc. Obviously these things can tie into roles too. 4e is great, but I think it is a design that still has a good bit of room to get even better! Also, faster simpler play opens up some new dimensions in and of itself.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's all fine. I just object to the idea that modifiers instead of the A/D system is somehow lazy game design.

Yeah, I'm not saying 4e did, particularly, though the tendency did exist at times. I actually think of the non-stacking advantage/disadvantage thing as a kind of design constraint which spurs one to more creative solutions.

 

[Voidmoji]

Yeah, I'm not saying 4e did, particularly, though the tendency did exist at times. I actually think of the non-stacking advantage/disadvantage thing as a kind of design constraint which spurs one to more creative solutions.

Excellent, thank you.