D&D General How would you redo 4e?

[AbdulAlhazred]

The resource schedules themselves I'd say no, because they pretty much all map to the schedules of like 3E except worded differently. An "encounter power" is just nothing more than a 3E resource that lasts 1/round per level and you have enough of them per day that you can use them every fight (unless you're running the prototypical crawl where the expectation is 6-8 encounters per day, but which we all know people don't ever run).

Now if we're talking that every class had the same resource schedule... that does have some merit. But I do think the 4E presentation made that sameness more evident and feel like a bigger thing than it might otherwise have felt if the powers were presented differently. But there is something to be said that had the power sources each had their own resource schedule (either different numbers of green/red/black powers or acquired at different levels) and made the classes themselves feel more different, it certainly wouldn't have hurt.

But it would have actually hurt the game A LOT in at least 2 ways. First is like 5e where there are endless issues with classes having different refresh models. Second it greatly complicates class design, as the designer now has to get this right each time. Third it breaks the 'universal design language' of uniform slots, preventing all the various power swaps, ability to mix and match theme/pp/ed etc. The price is quite high actually.

 

[MichaelSomething]

It's a small price to pay for immersion.

But it would have actually hurt the game A LOT in at least 2 ways. First is like 5e where there are endless issues with classes having different refresh models. Second it greatly complicates class design, as the designer now has to get this right each time. Third it breaks the 'universal design language' of uniform slots, preventing all the various power swaps, ability to mix and match theme/pp/ed etc. The price is quite high actually.

 

[Voadam]

This is an issue 5e at least fixed for everybody (except the Paladin for some reason...): Everybody had a THING they can do all day, or is at least passives, that makes them stand out at level 1. It means you can BE that class all the time right from the start. I believe Subclasses should ALSO get one of those when you get them or they fail at being a good representation of their theme.

At level 1, Casters get Cantrips, Fighters get Fighting Style, Rogues get Sneak Attack and Expertise, Ranger get their favoured terrain and enemy, Monks get Martial Art, Barbs get Unarmored Defense. Paladins...well, better luck next time I guess?

I am currently playing a 5e paladin that started at level 1. Detect evil being cha/day was a surprise.

Laying on hands from level 1 is super nice, but it is only 5 hp/day at level 1.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You only had a 14-15 Con? No Traits allowed? I'm used to 1st level Barbarians having 9 rounds or more. But yes, I can see how that would happen. Tell you what though, that's still better than 1 Rage/day.

The last time I played a Barbarian in Pathfinder, the GM let me take Optimistic Gambler. That was a fun ride, lol.

I was a halfling and therefore had to be punished in the ways of our bad design forefathers.

And it's better than one per day Rage in the same way having a knife in the gut is better than a knife in the eye. The idea that you only get to be your class X per day is abhorrent to me.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's a small price to pay for immersion.

I am not one who has any issues with that, and find it odd that the same sort of mechanics mysteriously don't have that effect on people playing 5e...

 

[W'rkncacnter]

It's a small price to pay for immersion.

i mean, for one, it's really not, but for another this is a false dichotomy anyway. a uniform resource schedule is not inherently non-immersive.

 

[Sanglorian]

In my experience, the classes in say 3e or 5e read differently, while the classes in 4e play differently.

I've got more experience with 3e than 5e, but in 3e it was not unusual for a barbarian or fighter to be built differently, getting their bonuses to attack and damage from different sources, but to play very similarly (charges, full attacks, Power Attack, etc). The same is true for spellcasters who had different ways of getting their spells but often cast the same spells, so played the same or similar role in combat.

It's part of a bigger problem with 4e, which is that they focused on designing the game. D&D is a sprawling hobby, and every customer reads a lot more content than they play. The gameplay won't contribute as much to the customer's overall experience as the writing.

5e learned that lesson, in my opinion - you can see that not just in the way the books are written (the 5e "few key subheadings" format for monster descriptions is so good) but also the peripherals like toys and collectibles that they're starting to offer.

 

[James Gasik]

3e Barbarians I would always take the extra rage feat for +2 times/day as a feat tax. Three encounters per day was just enough to feel comfortable generally raging when combat came up instead of hoarding it for boss fights or five minute work days.

There was a Feat that added 5 rounds to your Rage as well; that was really good if you didn't have tons of Con. Although my favorite version was the Unearthed Arcana Barbarian who entered rage whenever they were low on hit points.

 

[James Gasik]

I was a halfling and therefore had to be punished in the ways of our bad design forefathers.

And it's better than one per day Rage in the same way having a knife in the gut is better than a knife in the eye. The idea that you only get to be your class X per day is abhorrent to me.

I feel your pain, my Bloodrager was an Elf, so I went out of my way to find ways to get more rage rounds.

 

[Voadam]

There was a Feat that added 5 rounds to your Rage as well; that was really good if you didn't have tons of Con. Although my favorite version was the Unearthed Arcana Barbarian who entered rage whenever they were low on hit points.

Yeah I was not particularly a fan of pathfinder's x rounds/day as a resource management pool for barbarians or bards. Very fiddly, particularly for the barbarian class that you might expect to be mechanically simple to play. For me 3e's x encounters per day was preferable but 3.5 UA's bloodied triggering rage was fantastic and a step above.

I don't remember if 4e's barbarian had that triggering and shift out of the book or if it was some house rule we worked up for our game for the guy playing a barbarian, but I know in the one game where a fellow PC was a barbarian there was a defender striker shift that happened on bloodied trigger raging. It led to him not minding/trying to get hit so that it would trigger his striker damage, which fit both his play style and what we wanted the mechanics to do for the concept.