D&D 5E Humans, am I missing something? And what's up with half-elf skill bonus?

[Bryk]

Not sure how I've seen this twice now, this array below totals 28 points. 3, 3, 3, 5, 5, 9 = 28. Point buy is 27.

There default human is a little boring but not to bad for classes that have to use medium armor as getting your 2 16s means giving up a 14. Using point buy you can go

11
11
11
13
13
15

Which becomes 12,12,12,14,14,16. 16 strength, con dex for example as a light cleric as you want to buff wisdom for example or if you want to play a skill monkey character or have great saves. That 8 dex dump stat in heavy armor will bite you in the ass eventually.

Also rolling stats could also make the default human very attractive depending on what is rolled. A pair of 17s becomes 2 18s, 3 15's become 3 16'd. They also make good multiclass PCs. The main problems I see are.

1. Variant human is optional
2. Feats are optional
3. Multiclass is optional.
4. Races apart from Human/Dwarf/Elf/Halfling are optional

It also seems you get the choice to roll 4d6 drop the lowest or use the stat array. DMs discretion if you can use point buy.

 

[Mandragola]

A lot of this analysis ignores the racial abilities that other races get, but that's a mistake. Something like the half-orc's ability to not fall over when reduced to 0hp, or the dragonborn's breath attack is huge, especially at low level.

I'm not saying that's equal to heavy armour master, but that's not all you get with the racial pages. There are languages, skills, and assorted other options like the brutal attacks half orcs get or the resistances dragonborn, dwarves and tieflings have. From 4th level a dwarf, half orc or dragonborn can have the same feat, nearly the same (the human will have one stat with a better mod than a HO or DB, and be identical with a mountain dwarf) stats AND all their other racial abilities - probably making them better than a variant human.

Humans do get an advantage if they take a feat without any stat boost in it, as they can still start with a 16 in their primary stat and hit 20 at level 8. So that's a clear advantage to the human, kind of. They pay for that by having worse stats overall (they have to pay for a 15 in the stat at start) and no racial bonuses.

My point is that it's not something humans get "for free". It's a trade-off. It may not be a totally fair trade but actually I don't think it's way off. You're actually never going have exactly equal characters in terms of power within a group anyway, so something that gives a slight benefit to one race for 3 levels just really isn't a huge deal. I seriously don't think that the human variant rules could ever overpower a party enough for it to be a headache for DMs.

 

[dco]

I don't think the OP is missing much. A +2 in a stat is much more powerful than two +1s. Using the standard array, a non-human can start off with two 16s; a human cannot. Using point buy, to get two 16s a non-human has to buy a 15 and a 14; a human has to buy two 15s. Plus non-humans get cool abilities like resistances, darkvision, etc.

Yes, if you use the ability point cost table the races with +2 bonus have an advantage because costs are not linear, this is not fair in my opinion.
My solution is to change the costs of the table so they are linear, 14=6points, 15=7points. Players are a bit better but I like it, they are heroes and if they rolled dice they could end much better or much worse. You can always give them 24 points instead of 27 if you don't feel generous.
This way the guys with +2 racial bonuses don't have an advantage.

 

[jimmyjimjam]

Sure, but what kind of meanie-head DM wouldn't allow feats? Boo meanie-head DMs!

Me. I hate feats.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Yes, if you use the ability point cost table the races with +2 bonus have an advantage because costs are not linear, this is not fair in my opinion.
My solution is to change the costs of the table so they are linear, 14=6points, 15=7points. Players are a bit better but I like it, they are heroes and if they rolled dice they could end much better or much worse. You can always give them 24 points instead of 27 if you don't feel generous.
This way the guys with +2 racial bonuses don't have an advantage.

+2 to your class' primary stat is still a huge advantage even if you roll for the stats, it just isn't as enormous. +1 to 6 stats is only of much value if all of the stats have strong value, which they don't. 5e like every other edition before it rewards you far more for maximizing your strengths than it does for minimizing weaknesses. The other human option makes humans much better. You can expend the bonus feat to take one which gives you a +1 to the stat you want (plus some other bonus) giving you the net +2 which lets you keep up with the non-humans.

 

[Parmandur]

Honestly, the balancing assumption is that the player is rolling dice. Both point buy and the array are variants, not core assumptions of the system. To be fair to the balance, random die rolls need to be the baseline for comparison.

And I can say from experience at this point, bot humans and half-elves rock random die roll generation.

 

[DracoSuave]

Given that the goal of this game, stat wise, is to get to an even number to make the boost to 20 easy as possible, there are times where a +2 is not better than a +1. If you have a 15 in a stat, the highest available, a +1 is just as good.

 

[Mercule]

Sure, but what kind of meanie-head DM wouldn't allow feats? Boo meanie-head DMs!

I would totally be down for a game like that. As it is, I'm allowing feats, but making a heavy emphasis on the "you're 4th level, so you get two ability points". If there's a particular feat someone wants, so be it, but it's not assumed.

That considered, my wife really just wants to show up and play, so I'm usually left doing the statistic analysis to make her characters work. She gained 4th level, last night, with her elven fighter. I listed off a couple of feat choices (with analysis) and the only one that really caught her attention was Resilience (Dexterity), which brings her to an 18 and gives her some comfort around casters. She might pick up Tough, but I wouldn't put money on it. The most/all of the other players are taking feats, too, but I don't think anyone has a shopping list, so I doubt I'll see any taken beyond 8th level, as a rule. The feats just don't jump out, unless you've got something specific you're looking for. That suits me just fine.


Back to the main topic:

I think the humans with +1 to all make a very nice "default". Each of the other races are going to be slightly better at something, but none will be as balanced as a human. It's a study in min-maxing vs. max-minning; the human has fewer weaknesses. The variant human is at least on-par with the other races. If nothing else, a good number of feats grant a +1 to some ability score. So, the human who wants to play an archer Fighter, say, puts a +1 into Dex and the other into Con. Then, he takes Resilience (Dexterity), which gives him a +2 Dex/+1 Con -- better than what either high or wood elf grants. The weapon proficiencies are redundant with the class's. He trades in darkvision for an extra save proficiency. He can choose to spend the extra skill in Perception or something else. Having seen it in play, the cantrip won't be missed for a Fighter, nor would I expect the woodsy stealth to be (for a Fighter). That means, at worst, the character is behind an elven archer by either 5' of movement or a language -- either of which could be argued away by the freedom to select what stat gets the secondary +1.

You may disagree with my valuation, but it would come down to some subjective calls. That fact, alone, makes a pretty strong argument that the human isn't objectively underpowered. I'm sure there are some play styles that would find the human at a disadvantage, but that's still not absolute. The groups I've played with have generally found well-rounded characters to have better survival.

 

[transtemporal]

I would totally be down for a game like that. As it is, I'm allowing feats, but making a heavy emphasis on the "you're 4th level, so you get two ability points". If there's a particular feat someone wants, so be it, but it's not assumed.

That considered, my wife really just wants to show up and play, so I'm usually left doing the statistic analysis to make her characters work. She gained 4th level, last night, with her elven fighter. I listed off a couple of feat choices (with analysis) and the only one that really caught her attention was Resilience (Dexterity), which brings her to an 18 and gives her some comfort around casters. She might pick up Tough, but I wouldn't put money on it. The most/all of the other players are taking feats, too, but I don't think anyone has a shopping list, so I doubt I'll see any taken beyond 8th level, as a rule. The feats just don't jump out, unless you've got something specific you're looking for. That suits me just fine.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek really. There are some feats that are maybe a bit powerful for low levels but if thats the sole objection, just allow them from 8 instead of 4 and disallow the human variant race. Done!

Other than that, I think feats are interesting and give the character some interesting options they wouldn't have otherwise had. Some people (not necessarily you) seem to have a real vehement objection to feats.

 

[dco]

+2 to your class' primary stat is still a huge advantage even if you roll for the stats, it just isn't as enormous. +1 to 6 stats is only of much value if all of the stats have strong value, which they don't. 5e like every other edition before it rewards you far more for maximizing your strengths than it does for minimizing weaknesses. The other human option makes humans much better. You can expend the bonus feat to take one which gives you a +1 to the stat you want (plus some other bonus) giving you the net +2 which lets you keep up with the non-humans.

+2 is going to give you a +5% chance to rolls using that ability modifier, multiple +1 can give you multiple +5% if your ability scores were odd. Humans have the advantage here.
Depends if you want feats or if your GM allows them, the second option is not better per se, it can be better if you want to focus on something.

Honestly, the balancing assumption is that the player is rolling dice. Both point buy and the array are variants, not core assumptions of the system. To be fair to the balance, random die rolls need to be the baseline for comparison.


And I can say from experience at this point, bot humans and half-elves rock random die roll generation.

You can choose 15,14,13,12,10,8 , this array follows the point buy system and is not a variant rule.
Some will rock with random rolls, but the guy with 3 or more abilities with negative modifiers will suck.

 

[OpsKT]

I personally love the basic human - while we've seen a lot of good debate on the _numbers_ side of it, we are not seeing as much on the _story_ side of it.

Human's are one of the few races (the other one being half-elf) that gets to pick a language. Elves and Dwarves all hate Orcs, and Goblins, and etc, but they always need to go find a human to translate unless they use a feat for languages, or 250gold and 250 days to learn the language.

Other races can live next to each other for generations and never learn each others language, humans that grow up next to Dwarves (for example) likely know it. While Common always works, diplomacy and trade is always enhanced if you honor the people you trade with by using their language.

Settings wise, human's dominate in 90% of the published settings. Sure, you can be a Dragonborn, or a Gnome, or whatever to get the best stats, but the bartender that "Don't serve your kind here." doesn't care that you have darkvision and are more graceful than he is. If anything, that perhaps makes you more _alien_ to him.

People forget this is a RPG some days, and there are consequences and advantages for non-math parts of your characters.

 

[Salamandyr]

The somewhat frustrating thing is that the races that are supposed to be rare, all seem to have the best overall bonuses. Sure, humans are lackluster (even the variant human, in my opinion), but they're not that that outshined by the elf, the dwarf, or the halfling. But when you start looking at the Half-Elf, the Drow, the Tiefling, or the Half-Orc, they're just better. The half-elf is probably the worst offender, because it's such an easy replacement for human. If your mental image of your character is human, then you're probably not going to be satisfied playing a dwarf, dragonborn, or half-orc, even if those races fit better mechanically for your class. But the offspring of two starcrossed loves of different communities who looks human in all but the most insignificant way (that really awful half-elf illo aside-but this is recurrent problem with 5e's art), the half-elf nearly always fits a human concept almost as well as a human does.

 

[marcelos]

I agree with the OP.

Humans look underpowered in this edition when compared to subraces.

I gave my player the usual 6 ability boosts plus the extra feat and he is still below the dwarfs and elves of the group.

Darkvision, by itself, could be comparable to the extra feat.

The immunities of the races are much more powerful than proficiency on one skill.

I am not ranting, I love the edition so far, but this bothers me a little bit.

 

[Drudenfusz]

I also think Humans are slieghtly underpowered. I think I give the standard Human the additional free skill, and let the Variant have three different ability scores at +1. Basically deciding that the feat is worth three +1s (even though feats are only worse one ability increasement of two +1s or one +2). Anyway, compared to half-elf it seems also then a little bit more fair (with four ability score points, two skills and darkvision, which I also count like one point, like the skills would bring us to a total of 7, and the human six +1s, or the variant with two +1, one skill and one feat, which I count generously as three, the human is always one point short... maybe the dragonborn are the only other race one could argue are a little under valued).

Sorry, to necro this months old thread, but this is currently bothering me.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I also think Humans are slieghtly underpowered. I think I give the standard Human the additional free skill, and let the Variant have three different ability scores at +1. Basically deciding that the feat is worth three +1s (even though feats are only worse one ability increasement of two +1s or one +2). Anyway, compared to half-elf it seems also then a little bit more fair (with four ability score points, two skills and darkvision, which I also count like one point, like the skills would bring us to a total of 7, and the human six +1s, or the variant with two +1, one skill and one feat, which I count generously as three, the human is always one point short... maybe the dragonborn are the only other race one could argue are a little under valued).

Sorry, to necro this months old thread, but this is currently bothering me.

Is it bothering because of some play experience, or is it based on theory-craft? Because my sense (as a player and a ref) is that no one is complaining about the variant human at all. It is the only way to get a feat before fourth level -- the only way! -- and so consistently offers build opportunities other races do not.

You can't treat bonuses to a class's prime stats as equivalent to their sub-prime ones.

Sure, give the non-variant human an extra skill if you like; but the variant humans need nothing more -- they shine in play, from level 1.

 

[Drudenfusz]

Is it bothering because of some play experience, or is it based on theory-craft?

It bothers me so much, since I usually love to play humans, but so far every time I tried to build one, I ended up playing a half-elf, since it always turned out to be the better option. I feel gimped when I take a human. Don't get me wrong, feats are nice and dandy (and I even calculated them as being worth 3 points, even though they are later in the game only worth two). Worse, when starting at higher levels (what is only a matter of time in my group I guess, and thus everybody being able to get a feat start), the human will completely become obsolete (of course more races that get released in the fuure will also make that more obvious). The maths is just against the human, and that makes me sad.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Again, this just doesn't match my experience.

It bothers me so much, since I usually love to play humans, but so far every time I tried to build one, I ended up playing a half-elf, since it always turned out to be the better option.

That's certainly possible: half-elves are strong for charisma-based classes -- but using point-buy, they still can only start with a +3 modifier, which is the same as the human. That they are "better" (for you) is perhaps true. I don't believe that the two can have been that far out from each other, though, especially if you also chose a feat (e.g. spell-sniper for a warlock or sorcerer).

I feel gimped when I take a human. Don't get me wrong, feats are nice and dandy (and I even calculated them as being worth 3 points, even though they are later in the game only worth two).

Well, obviously I can't evaluate how you feel, but as I've said I think this evaluation is unhelpful.

Worse, when starting at higher levels (what is only a matter of time in my group I guess, and thus everybody being able to get a feat start), the human will completely become obsolete (of course more races that get released in the fuure will also make that more obvious).

I don't see how this can be so: the human at high levels has an *extra* feat, or can use an ability boost to boost his abilities, depending on your play style. The variant human is ahead of every other race on this, throughout the game.

The maths is just against the human, and that makes me sad.

Really, you shouldn't be sad. The human is very strong and will always be so. Rejoice!

 

[TrippyHippy]

I’m quite happy with Humans if they take the option of a feat, a skill and +1 on two Abilities of their choice. The variable abilities, in combination with a Feat (which often have more Ability bonuses) large makes them on a par with other basic Races. It’s the variety of choice that makes me feel that way, even if mathematically they may not balance.

I do think the Half-Elf seems a little overpowered though - to the degree that I don’t really like them being used by players. Again, it’s not that they have abilities, it’s because they seem to have the best of Elven abilities and Human flexibility. Really, ought they have an extra two Abilities at +1 in addition to a +2 CHA? Where did having an extra two skills come from?

 

[DracoSuave]

I also think Humans are slieghtly underpowered. I think I give the standard Human the additional free skill, and let the Variant have three different ability scores at +1. Basically deciding that the feat is worth three +1s (even though feats are only worse one ability increasement of two +1s or one +2). Anyway, compared to half-elf it seems also then a little bit more fair (with four ability score points, two skills and darkvision, which I also count like one point, like the skills would bring us to a total of 7, and the human six +1s, or the variant with two +1, one skill and one feat, which I count generously as three, the human is always one point short... maybe the dragonborn are the only other race one could argue are a little under valued).

Sorry, to necro this months old thread, but this is currently bothering me.

You're really underestimating that feat. Being able to start with one is huge--that feat is usually comparable to an entire suite of racial powers, and most of them come with an additional attribute which means the variant human can start with +2 on the stat of their choice, +1 on another good stat.

Most races in the game get:

+2 main stat, +1 second stat, skill, suite of abilities.

Variant humans can get:

+2 main stat, +1 second stat, skill, suite of abilities.

Some feats obviously don't compare as well, but that's not the fault of the variant human.

Half-elves might get that extra point in an off-stat, but the suite of abilities they get are.... not so exciting. They don't compare to the raw power a feat gives.

 

[Drudenfusz]

That's certainly possible: half-elves are strong for charisma-based classes -- but using point-buy, they still can only start with a +3 modifier, which is the same as the human. That they are "better" (for you) is perhaps true. I don't believe that the two can have been that far out from each other, though, especially if you also chose a feat (e.g. spell-sniper for a warlock or sorcerer).

My current character is a Monk, not a charisma-based class, and still the half-elf felt like a better option.

I don't see how this can be so: the human at high levels has an *extra* feat, or can use an ability boost to boost his abilities, depending on your play style. The variant human is ahead of every other race on this, throughout the game.

Guess I am just not feat dependent. Sure, there are some nice feats, but with only 5 ability increases for most clases, I will most often end up not taking any feats at all (like I assume I will with my mentioned Monk, boosting DEX and WIS for obvius reaons, and also CHA because of personal preference).

You're really underestimating that feat. Being able to start with one is huge--that feat is usually comparable to an entire suite of racial powers, and most of them come with an additional attribute which means the variant human can start with +2 on the stat of their choice, +1 on another good stat.

Most races in the game get:

+2 main stat, +1 second stat, skill, suite of abilities.

Variant humans can get:

+2 main stat, +1 second stat, skill, suite of abilities.

Some feats obviously don't compare as well, but that's not the fault of the variant human.

Half-elves might get that extra point in an off-stat, but the suite of abilities they get are.... not so exciting. They don't compare to the raw power a feat gives.

I just talked with a friend of mine about this, she told me that my problem with this could be that there is no good feat that provide a Charisma bonus and then something useful that I would like to have. I prefer to play non-magical classes, but also like to be the social character in the group, with that set of interests the half-elf beats the human every time. Straight up abilities and skills are most of the time more useful to me then getting a spell or some other fancy stuff from a feat (I would love to build a character that utilises the Tavern Brawler feat, which I think is kinda cute, but in the end it is just luxury... a luxury the gals I build usually cannot affort).