Humans - Most Powerful Race in 3e?

I don't think humans are notably above the power of the other races. Even if they were, I don't have a problem with it. Humans are so unfavored in my group that, even in 3.5, I had to institute a "no more than one PC of any single non-human race" in my humanocentric setting.

I guess my group may be odd, though, because no one chose dwarf or either of the two large races available as PCs -- any of which could probably be pegged as more bang-for-the-buck than humans.
 

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Versatility is power. Hardly anyone wants to play the small races because of movement. Movement is king in 3.5. Half-elves are a joke. Half-orcs are good for hitting things only. Elves have a favored class with d4 HD and take a CON hit!

Humans are hands down the most powerful race in 3e. Of my group, we have 3 humans and a gnome. The gnome is being played for flavor reasons. The gnome is a Paladin and the least effective character in the bunch, even with good feats, skill and attribute selection.
 

Seeten said:
I play a Half-Orc Barbarian/Fighter in a campaign right now, and I'd trade my Half-Orc in for a Human in about 1 nanosecond. (The GM made all the PC's and let us pick, I came in late, and got the leftover).

I think this is due to the half-orc being underpowered than the human being over powered. I think a dwarf is actaully a better choice for a barbarian then a half orc. Increased Con, makes it even more of a tank. Weapon familiarity gives him the dwarven war-axe, which practically screams barbarian weapon. If you end up fighting lots of orcs goblins and giants, it gets even better.

I generally dont find +2/-2 to stats better than 0 across the board.

The reason I tend to think of a +2/-2 is better, is because a powergame can find a way a way to make any ability more important to a character than another ability, often they can make one ability almost completely irrelivant.

Of the core races I'll play a dwarf, elf, or halfling, though I'm stuck in a human rogue rut right now (I covet those precious precious skill points). Gnomes and half-elves don't appeal to me, and while a hal-orc appeals to me from a roleplaying prespective, the power gamer inside just won't let me.
 

MatthewJHanson said:
I think this is due to the half-orc being underpowered than the human being over powered. I think a dwarf is actaully a better choice for a barbarian then a half orc. Increased Con, makes it even more of a tank. Weapon familiarity gives him the dwarven war-axe, which practically screams barbarian weapon. If you end up fighting lots of orcs goblins and giants, it gets even better.
Besides their Str penalty, gnomes make decent barbarians too.
 

The problem with this is that as a powergamer myself, the penalties tend to come in abilities I cherish. For example, Elves get dex at the cost of con. I dont want to lose con, for a dex bonus. +5 bonus compared to +4 bonus, for example, just doesnt strike me as amazingly better. The +2 thats a +1 or the +1 thats now 0 compensates for it. In D&D, the only stat most characters can afford to throw away is Charisma, and frankly, there are a lot of good skills attached to charisma. I tend to lead, and so I cant generally throw it away, so I am stuck, in general with 6 stats that cant suck. giving a +2/-2 doesnt make the one particularly much better, but it really hurts the balance of making the throwaway stat atrocious. +2/-2/-2 is even worse. Its bad in every conceivable way. Whats more, I dont think the designers had a firm handle on how valuable strength is. It is not worth 2 lower stats. Not to me, and I am a powergamer.

Versatility and Flexibility are power. Humans have it in spades. Darkvision at 60' just doesnt make up for it, in my mind.
 
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It all depends on how you play the game.

D&D, and this is just my opinion, isn't balanced to compensate for power-gaming of any sort. If you start into the game crunching numbers for maximum efficiency in combat-related skills... your character is already more powerful than the norm that the monsters are calculated for in CR.

Just look at the NPC's in campaigns. Yeah, some of them have really whacky, superior stats, but even those characters are not "optimized". When you optimize, then yes, the races with the most combat versatility are going to dominate. Humans can do more things... and when you add it all into an optimized combat suite... wow, why ever pick a gnome?

But, if you enjoy playing according to you stats (i.e., your monk doesn't have an 8 charisma every time you use point-buy), or if you actually give your characters feats to reflect their personalities (and decide that they aren't just street thugs/ Ultimate Fighting Championship archetypes), then I think the races are pretty well balanced out.

Yeah, things become blaringly off-kilter when we build characters with the specific mind-set of "Well, how can I make him more powerful!?" But hey, it's just a game, and if you can't imagine actually putting numbers in other stats or skills that have no direct involvment in killing the BBEG, that's totally your perogative and a valid way to play. But I still wouldn't be surprised if suddenly the other classes appear weak or invalid.
 

You know, I heard this argument, Doctor Shaft, about why Palladium wasnt a bad system on another recent thread, and the answers were, well, we play D20 because its balanced, mostly, and Palladium doesnt even have a semblance of balance.

If you are aiming for balance in your system, why would you ever make up such an excuse as: "Well, yes it isnt balanced, but its what we have, so dont be a munchkin" if I wanted a game completely bereft of balance, I'd play something else. I dont, and I dont buy the argument you posit one bit. I'd rather hear a yes, they probably are too powerful, or, the other races slightly underpowered, here is my house rule to compensate, than to hear, "Yes D20 is unbalanced, the races are poorly put together, but if you arent a munchkin and just play for the rp, it'll be ok" line.

Frankly, your line of thinking doesnt help me make my fort save when the basilisk stares at me. It doesnt aid my will save when the Blight Wolf is howling, either. It doesnt help kill the level 9 mage attacking me. But Mageslayer, Great Fortitude and Iron Will sure do. Humans get more of those.
 

Seeten said:
Versatility and Flexibility are power. Humans have it in spades. Darkvision at 60' just doesnt make up for it, in my mind.
Flexibility won't help you make ranged attacks in a pitch black cave, being fast won't help you crawl through an opening big enough for Small sized characters, being able to cleave you enemies in two a starting level won't help you detect the entrance to the secret passage their leader fled down or notice the slight crooked brickwork that may hint at at. What happens when the only witness to a murder is an urbanated fox?

The only reason I can see why humans are overpowered is that DMs don't stress and utilise the disadvantages of being normal.
 
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I don't think they're the most powerful. Certainly one of the factors I've considered in choosing humans is their favored class. If you play an elf or dwarf or any other race, you're going to be forced in a certain direction simply because you don't want to take XP penalties. Human is much better for this.

Pinotage
 

Well, that's the thing Seeten, I kind of do buy that argument (though I haven't played Palladium before, though it sounds like balance wise it's really messy).

I really do believe that even if you make a combat-oriented character, but don't do things like say "Well, I'll make a statistically powerful fighter, and take the hits to wisdom and charisma, because we just don't play the social downfalls of those scores, just the stat points for will saves, etc., that are inherited from it", then the game becomes unbalanced.

I think the roleplay feature DOES balance the game out. Maybe not for something like Palladium. I don't know. From what I've read, it really does sound like some classes really easily trump others, and no amount of balancing out your scores will save it.

For instance. Someone makes a half orc in some campaign, and optimizes him for full str, full con, and everything else comes secondary. Power-wise, he might prove to be this hulking juggernaut (this is all theoretical).

But, roleplay-wise, he's as useless as an unintelligent earthworm, or a goblin. And so, when you get to parts where you have to walk in towns, barter with the shopkeeper, learn information, solve the mysteries of a campaign, he's a hinderance. But in combat he's the king.

I'll admit, as a combat simulator, D&D is NOT balanced one bit. I don't think any Pen-and-Paper games that aren't centered around Person versus Person combat are. But, I think that the games races are decidely more "in-line with each other" if players don't overspecialize, which D&D most unfortunately rewards all too much.
 

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