Hybrid Classes

Looking over the article, I'm pretty glad - mostly because what problems I have with the system as written can be fixed by addition, not subtraction.

Several of the class abilities (combat challenge, divine challenge) can be fixed by having them work at full power. Others (rogue, ranger) could be written to work with all powers, but put in a provision that they can't stack if that's too powerful. The wizard hybrid feature is pretty lol; spellbook would probably be a better replacement, if not a possibly limited version of implement mastery.

Otherwise, you could add another feat (which is a band-aid fix, but again, addition) in conjunction with Hybrid Talent :

Improved Hybrid Feature
Prerequisite: Hybrid character
Benefit: Choose a class feature from one of your classes that you possess as a hybrid version. You replace the hybrid version with that class feature.

I still think the system needs some tweaking, but either way it's a start.
 

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The worst abuse I can come up with is a fighter/ranger with doublesword or urgosh. You're essentially stacking fighter striker damage from tempest with ranger striker damage from hunter's quarry, using twin strike. At higher levels with all the static bonuses you can get, damage output will go through the roof, especially since you can also pick up a multiclass feat such as Avenger to become super accurate for 2 rounds per encounter with your zounds of attacks.
Are you referring to a hybrid fighter-hybrid ranger multiclass avenger taking a hybrid feat to get tempest technique?


There are some interactions that are sort of unclear to me. It looks like a human hybrid something/warlock could start with one something at-will and two warlock at-wills, and then pick up a pact with the hybrid feat for eldritch blast and the pact at-will, giving him 4 warlock at-wills and 1 something at-will, for a total of 5 at-wills. Not sure if this is intended or not.
AFAIK, the warlock pact forces you to pick a specific at-will, it doesn't give you that at-will per say.
 


After further review, a great weakness I see in this system is the way it deals with armor proficiency. Would it be so unbalancing to get the better of the two armor proficiencies or at least a compromise? I have a player who plays a cleric with some fighter multiclassing and if he could ask for one thing is that he did not have to waste so many feats for shields and armor to match the archetype he had in mind.
 

After further review, a great weakness I see in this system is the way it deals with armor proficiency. Would it be so unbalancing to get the better of the two armor proficiencies or at least a compromise? I have a player who plays a cleric with some fighter multiclassing and if he could ask for one thing is that he did not have to waste so many feats for shields and armor to match the archetype he had in mind.

Heh, it actually reminds me of second edition multi-classing. You had to obey the restrictions of the worst class. So a Ftr/Thf got all fighter weapon but only leather armor. A Ftr/Wizard couldn't cast in armor. In theory, they could wear heavier armor, but doing so forfeited thief skills or spellcasting. Clerics were the oddity, they got all armor but forced blunt weapons. So a cleric/wizard was double screwed; blunt weapons and no armor. But the spells!
 

There are some interactions that are sort of unclear to me. It looks like a human hybrid something/warlock could start with one something at-will and two warlock at-wills, and then pick up a pact with the hybrid feat for eldritch blast and the pact at-will, giving him 4 warlock at-wills and 1 something at-will, for a total of 5 at-wills. Not sure if this is intended or not.


Actually, assuming that you can only take the Hybrid feat once this wouldn't be true. Eldritch Blast is a different class feature then Eldritch Pact. This means a human Warlock Hybrid will only have 4 at-wills rather then their usual 3.

I like the new rules though.
 

I don't think the armor thing will be a noticeable issue when people actually play the game. To get a functional armor class, you need either heavy armor or light armor plus a focus in dexterity or intelligence. Its going to be a rare hybrid character without at least one of these. On top of that, the hybrid character's ability scores are probably going to qualify it for armor feats, easily.

So there is a cost, but its not that big of one.

I think I like this more than granting the best armor from each class. I'm sure people will be able to come up with specific examples where it wouldn't be unreasonable for their hybrid character to have the better armor options of the two hybridized classes, but the game can't be balanced on making the worst option match par, or else the best options will be unreasonable. I'd rather things be balanced for the best and the majority of the best options, and then leave people to their ingenuity to work out the rest.
 

After further review, a great weakness I see in this system is the way it deals with armor proficiency. Would it be so unbalancing to get the better of the two armor proficiencies or at least a compromise? I have a player who plays a cleric with some fighter multiclassing and if he could ask for one thing is that he did not have to waste so many feats for shields and armor to match the archetype he had in mind.

Maybe take the worst of the two hybrids, plus the next best armor proficiency of the better hybrid?
 

Oddly enough I don't think hybrid classes get any "free" skills. With "free" I mean like the Wizard automatically gets Arcane and the Cleric gets Religion. However a Wizard/Cleric hybrid would have neither automatically.

That should be rectified with a house rule I think...
 

The more I think about it, the more I think this was the Designers being very cautious, and giving this playtest article out to see if it works.

Because looking at it, the rules here strike me as very conservative.

There are limitations here where there is little reason for there to be limitations.

Like the fighter's Combat Challenge only working on fighter powers. Why? I understand the fear - a Fighter|Wizard could mark everyone in the area of a spell. But a Fighter with a Wizard multi-class can do that already. Marking everyone in an area isn't that big a deal - the Fighter only has ONE Immediate action per round, and the mark goes away at the end of his next turn.

Same with Sneak Attack/Hunter's Quarry. Sneak attack is only possible with rogue weapons, and it can only be done once per round. So, what's the big fear? Even if a rogue is using a power where he gets to attack multiple times or multiple targets, he is still limited to the rogue's weapons as far as SA is concerned, and can only do it on one attack per round. Same with the Ranger; he can only deal Hunter's Quarry to one target, once. So what if the Hunter's Quarry target is in an area affect from a spell?

I think Wizards went the path of "We'll give them something very limited, let the folks play with it, see how it runs, and then increase its power later." It's easier to give something weak, and beef it up, then it is to give something broken and nerf it later.

Those restrictions are actually the only thing keeping the hybrid classes from being overbalanced.

The thing to understand is that the goal, here, isn't to produce a class that can fill two roles at the exact same time. You don't want that, after all! If a character is able to be a perfect defender while unleashing full striker damage, why should you bother with a standard defender or standard striker?

The goal instead is to have a character that can fill either role perfectly well at any given time, but not both at once.

So, the Fighter/Ranger can spend one round using his fighter powers, and marking opponents, and keeping them from attacking his allies. Then, the next round, it looks like his allies are in a safe spot - so he instead uses his ranger powers and does striker damage to take them down fast.

And what you especially don't want is for striker classes to compile their damage. If there was no restriction on Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry, and you could simply stack them? That is really, really overpowered. The handful of minor abilities you lose out on in order to get this doesn't compare to how much higher damage you deal compared to a standard Rogue or standard Ranger.

Sure, you need to both quarry an enemy and get combat advantage. But that is not difficult at all. The system is designed for rogues to have combat advantage nearly all the time, as long as they are attempting to do so - and even ranged rogues have quite a few ways to do so.

In fact, the one primary balance problem I've noticed with these rules is that you can get in 3-4 rounds of super-striker damage, by focusing on encounter powers that give attacks that are minor actions or immediate actions.That's a good chunk of the fight to have that level of inflated damage. I don't think it is gamebreaking levels of damage, but it does seem the one large area of abuse for these rules.

Aside from that, I am very impressed at their elegance. The limitation on class features only working with class powers does go a long way towards making sure you only fill one role at a time. The big issue just seems to be making sure the right features are chosen for each class - someone pointed out that the hybrid Warlord currently seems a bit too strong, since of his three class features, it gives him one for full (Combat Leader), he can get another for full via Hybrid Talent (Commanding Presence), and it gives him Inspiring Word at one less use per encounter - which, if he Hybrids cleric, he makes up by gaining Healing word once per encounter.

Thus, the Cleric/Warlord Hybrid is just like a standard Warlord, except he can pick between Cleric and Warlord powers and has Healer's Lore, in return for losing a feat (on Hybrid Talent), and Light Shield Proficiency. And lower hitpoints, admittedly, which is significant - but still seems a pretty low cost for what he gets.

I'm concerned that similar set-ups (where you get something for very little loss) will only be more likely as they add more hybrid class options with other classes as well. As long as they choose what each gets very cautiously, this system seems mostly workable, but it will require some very careful design.

I don't think these builds are underpowered. They have the potential to be, certain, like any build does, but I think every combination gets interesting options and abilities that will make up for what they are missing out on.
 

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