Hydras, 3d6 breath per head & other ?s

[Elder-Basilisk]

Not from my experience.

I think we established that your experience is not representative in the previous thread on this topic.

When compared to 25-32 point buy, DMG wealth level characters of the same level as the hydra, standard PCs with a defensively focussed fighter do best and, even then, will only win with great difficulty.

Hydra are wierd creatures who are dramatically under-rated against parties of lower level than their CR and are somewhat over-rated against parties of higher level than their CR.

Cutting off heads is almost never an attractive option, but if someone is going to do it then they will most likely have improved sunder. So, no aoo's provoked at all. Even then though it is usually a better idea to simply attack the body anyway.

You're right about that which makes one wonder why the option is there to begin with....

So again, it is fairly easy to avoid the aoo's from reach with a bit of planning, and attacking the heads is mostly a bad idea. The pile of aoo's seems to be one of the two things that actually makes its cr, the other is the fast healing (which might be a bit much). But then, I have seen one of the cr 5 guys go down in two rounds to a 5th level party of four players with no loss of characters, and barely any damage (one guy provoked one of the aoo's, but with a good ac he barely got touched).

As we discussed, your experiences are not representative of the broad spectrum of D&D players or of the iconic level of balance.

 

[Psiblade]

Regular hydras are a lot easier for their CR then Pyro or Cryo are at an equal CR. The low AC of a Hydra invites power attack. The attack bonus also is not that great, so a high AC will stop most attacks. The fast healing is the real pain. The hydra is a huge (long) creature and as such the reach for a hydra is only 10 feet (pg 314). If you give the give the hydra 15 foot reach, then the hydra is definitely under CR.

Pyro / Cryo Hydra fights tend to vary a lot based on resist elements being up or not. If resist elements is up, then the pyro/cryo hydra's fast healing and multiple attacks can be handled. The saves against the breath weapons are tough for their CR. My feeling is that the cryo & pyro hydras are under CR by 1. The regular hydra is almost there also. In any case, Hydras definitely take coordination.

-Psiblade

 

[FireLance]

Spring Attack, Sunder and Whirlwind Attack.

So, is a hydra considered a single creature or is each separate head considered a separate creature?

If a hydra is considered a single creature, then a fighter with Spring Attack ought to be able to attack it without provoking an AOO from any of its heads.

If each head is considered a separate creature, then a sunder attempt should only draw an AOO from the head being attacked, and a fighter with Whirlwind Attack ought to be able to attack each one.

Or is this just a case of however the DM decides to inconvenience the PCs, goes?

 

[Pinotage]

Except that the normal benefit of the Combat Reflexes feat allows the Hydra (with Dex 12) to make two AoOs a round... which explains the plural in the ability description, allowing it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

It gets to attacks of opportunity a round, and for those attacks of opportunity, it can use all its heads.

-Hyp.

In its most general form Combat Reflexes allows a creature to take more than one attack of opportunity per round, not more than one attack per opportunity. It's Combat Reflexes - more attacks of opportunity, not more attacks per opportunity. The Hydra's Combat Reflexes is an extension of the feat to allow it more than its dexterity would allow. Nothing in the Combat Reflexes feat allows more than one attack per opportunity. If, by the interpretation you've given it gets multiple attacks per opportunity, then its not in the spirit of what the Combat Reflexes feat does.

Pinotage

 

[Hypersmurf]

In its most general form Combat Reflexes allows a creature to take more than one attack of opportunity per round, not more than one attack per opportunity.

The PHB vanilla version of the feat? Absolutely.

The hydra has the Combat Reflexes feat - allowing it to make a number of additional AoOs each round equal to its Dex bonus - and a racial ability: its Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for AoOs.

Nobody else can use the vanilla feat from the PHB to use all their heads for AoOs, so what the PHB feat does isn't particularly relevant to that sentence. The relevance of the PHB feat is that the hydra can take two AoOs a round. And for those AoOs, with its racial ability, it can use all its heads.

-Hyp.

 

[Pinotage]

The PHB vanilla version of the feat? Absolutely.

The hydra has the Combat Reflexes feat - allowing it to make a number of additional AoOs each round equal to its Dex bonus - and a racial ability: its Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for AoOs.

Nobody else can use the vanilla feat from the PHB to use all their heads for AoOs, so what the PHB feat does isn't particularly relevant to that sentence. The relevance of the PHB feat is that the hydra can take two AoOs a round. And for those AoOs, with its racial ability, it can use all its heads.

-Hyp.

LOL! We're going to be going around in circles here

It's not a racial ability, it's an extension of the feat. Here's what the SRD says:

Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

If I were a designer and I wanted to extend the Combat Reflexes ability to allow a hydra to use all its heads for an AoO, I'd state the sentence as:

The hydra's Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads when making an attack of opportunity.

However, if it were merely an extension to allow it to make more AoO than its dexterity would allow, I'd write (exactly as written now):

The hydra's Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

Now, I don't presume to know the mind of a designer, nor be a master of the english language since its not my first language. If we take my view, there's only one way to write it down and that's how it's written. But, if we take your view, then you can easily restate the sentence in any number of ways to make it clearer. It seems like you're choosing to see an ambiguity when there may not be one?

Pinotage

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, if it were merely an extension to allow it to make more AoO than its dexterity would allow, I'd write (exactly as written now):

The hydra's Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

Whereas I'd say "The hydra's Combat Reflexes feat allows it to make one attack of opportunity each round for each head it possesses, but only one head may attack for any given opportunity."

-Hyp.

 

[Pinotage]

Whereas I'd say "The hydra's Combat Reflexes feat allows it to make one attack of opportunity each round for each head it possesses, but only one head may attack for any given opportunity."

-Hyp.

What? And add all those extra words when space is a premium?!

Given that an AoO is a single melee attack (as per the FAQ - it is an attack of opportunity after all), that the Combat Reflexes feat implies increasing the number of AoO per round only and not per attack, and taking the words for the hydra's Combat Reflexes feat as literal as they are written, I can only conclude as I have done.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Given that an AoO is a single melee attack...

Ordinarily, and in the absence of any situation-specific overriding rules, I agree completely.

But there do exist situation-specific overriding rules. See the Double Hit feat from the Miniatures Handbook that allows a character to make an attack with both primary and off-hand weapon on an AoO.

... that the Combat Reflexes feat implies increasing the number of AoO per round only and not per attack...

Per the PHB, it does indeed. In the absence of any situation-specific overriding rules, of course.

... and taking the words for the hydra's Combat Reflexes feat as literal as they are written...

As they're written? When a hydra makes attacks of opportunity, the feat allows it to use all of its heads.

-Hyp.

 

[Pinotage]

As they're written? When a hydra makes attacks of opportunity, the feat allows it to use all of its heads.

-Hyp.

Nope, it's 'the hydra can use all its heads to make attacks of opportunity'.